Frontier Hiring.
09-23-2016, 11:06 AM
#5512
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
You can and will get released if you stick together. The Allegiant pilots didn't get released because their management got slightly more reasonable and the pilot group chose to ratify an underwhelming contract. Of course you don't get released if you choose to accept management's terms.
Oh really. How long? I only ask, because you sound so sure of yourself.
09-23-2016, 12:37 PM
#5513
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 289
[QUOTE=flyboyx;2209193]i don't fault you for being upset, but it is only personal for you and angry others like you. this is NOT frank lorenzo we are dealing with. they are indeed not nice people, but we are not even in the same ballpark. the analogy is....ridiculous. history shows that frank was, well....ruthless and pure evil. this mgt group is here to simply make as much money as they can. it is NOT personal for them. if we are going to get anywhere, we(as in you) are going to need to separate these two important aspects and start thinking rationally. you are making a mistake to think this is personal for them. i promise you it is not. they look at it as doing business the same way they have been doing business for however many years they have been doing this. take a deep breath. think about it.....you are approaching this all wrong. at the end of the day we are dealing with pragmatists. not lorenzos. they will cave at the eleventh hour because that is the pragmatic business decision that will need to be made when the time comes.
Sorry but I disagree. There is a right way and a wrong way to treat your employees and other human beings in general. You can chalk up their actions as "good business" but the current state of our operation demonstrates otherwise. Ya they saved some money in the short term by laying off some of the very people who built this airline but it will cost them in the long run. I doubt Indigo cares about being first in customer satisfaction and on time arrivals but they sure as hell don't want to be a distant last right before their IPO. We've already had one CEO fired recently for poor operational performance it wouldn't surprise me to see a second.
Here is what I don't understand, it's in Indigo's best interest to preserve the status quo for as long as possible. They are literally getting 230 seat A321 pilots at below regional pay rates. Negotiations under the RLA are a game of appearances. A shrewd management team would make an offer low enough they knew wouldn't be accepted but reasonable enough to keep the union at the table. Now instead of drawing the process out with feints and empty promises like Spirit management did for over a year Indigo is likely going to find themselves in mediation with federally mandated meetings in which the mediators are going to want to see at least some reasonable progress. No more cancelling meetings at the last minute or showing up completely unprepared. Not to mention now there is a real possibility your most expensive labor group may get released to strike at some point in the future. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe Indigo has been playing this game for so long on such an uneven playing field we're just all stuck hanging on what is going to be a very bumpy ride. Are we really dealing with the B team? Does none of this actually matter because a merger/acquisition is in the works? Call me stupid but I just don't get their strategy up to this point. The last three months have been a disaster, how is that good for any of the parties involved?
Sorry but I disagree. There is a right way and a wrong way to treat your employees and other human beings in general. You can chalk up their actions as "good business" but the current state of our operation demonstrates otherwise. Ya they saved some money in the short term by laying off some of the very people who built this airline but it will cost them in the long run. I doubt Indigo cares about being first in customer satisfaction and on time arrivals but they sure as hell don't want to be a distant last right before their IPO. We've already had one CEO fired recently for poor operational performance it wouldn't surprise me to see a second.
Here is what I don't understand, it's in Indigo's best interest to preserve the status quo for as long as possible. They are literally getting 230 seat A321 pilots at below regional pay rates. Negotiations under the RLA are a game of appearances. A shrewd management team would make an offer low enough they knew wouldn't be accepted but reasonable enough to keep the union at the table. Now instead of drawing the process out with feints and empty promises like Spirit management did for over a year Indigo is likely going to find themselves in mediation with federally mandated meetings in which the mediators are going to want to see at least some reasonable progress. No more cancelling meetings at the last minute or showing up completely unprepared. Not to mention now there is a real possibility your most expensive labor group may get released to strike at some point in the future. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe Indigo has been playing this game for so long on such an uneven playing field we're just all stuck hanging on what is going to be a very bumpy ride. Are we really dealing with the B team? Does none of this actually matter because a merger/acquisition is in the works? Call me stupid but I just don't get their strategy up to this point. The last three months have been a disaster, how is that good for any of the parties involved?
09-23-2016, 12:49 PM
#5514
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 629
The strategy is simple and has been used often in the airline industry for decades. It's called hard ball negotiations.
Not sure what disaster your referencing. If it's the ramp issues they already spent through the same nonsense at Spirit.
Not sure what disaster your referencing. If it's the ramp issues they already spent through the same nonsense at Spirit.
09-23-2016, 04:59 PM
#5515
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 189
I think the answer at the core is that trowser and flyboy have no pride in what they do as professionals. Those of us that do and see our peers and how they are compensated for what they do are rightly pi$$ed off. Apparently they have no dignity and no issue with the fact that our management sees us as essentially slave labor, getting paid less than FOs at places like Envoy and PSA. But that's cool with them. They are going to make excuses for management and how they do business. The rest of the 998 pilots here can be mad as he!! about what's going on here. I just hope I don't get stuck in a 4 day with either of you.
09-23-2016, 05:25 PM
#5517
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 629
I think the answer at the core is that trowser and flyboy have no pride in what they do as professionals. Those of us that do and see our peers and how they are compensated for what they do are rightly pi$$ed off. Apparently they have no dignity and no issue with the fact that our management sees us as essentially slave labor, getting paid less than FOs at places like Envoy and PSA. But that's cool with them. They are going to make excuses for management and how they do business. The rest of the 998 pilots here can be mad as he!! about what's going on here. I just hope I don't get stuck in a 4 day with either of you.
Why don't you grow up.
What's apparent is you've never been through any contract negotiations with anything other than your parents for your allowance.
4 day with me? PM your info I'll buy you lunch.
09-23-2016, 05:30 PM
#5518
Kabuki Kool
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: fu3king.airline@Furlough. DNA
Posts: 447
09-23-2016, 06:14 PM
#5519
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 23
Here is the difference between Frontier and SUDA (Southwest/United/Delta/American):
1) You fly more people per flight. That means more liability- higher chances of a medical or fight on board.
2) Your travel benefits are less relevant. You can't just take your wife to Europe on a company plane. Your status as a pilot means nothing on other airlines. Buddy passes are worthless, more difficult to jumpseat, etc.
3) More red-eye flying as a percentage of total flying. Southwest doesn't do red-eyes. Just saying.
4) Hotels (and rides to them) are inferior. But to be fair, this saves the company money. Oh, and the 1-2-3 bar deal comes to mind.
5) At the risk of sounding snooty here, there is a correlation between the cost of a ULCC ticket and the... class of individual buying it. Just walk around A terminal in Denver, then do the same in B or C. You'll see what I mean.
6) In flight meals/movies/ovens/first class seating does not exist for pilot benefit in any capacity.
My point? I'm really not trying to complain, just pointing out that the job we do for this business model is more challenging and has less perks than at the Big 4. Like UPS or Fedex, we should be paid more for that.
Not less. Not "industry average."
1) You fly more people per flight. That means more liability- higher chances of a medical or fight on board.
2) Your travel benefits are less relevant. You can't just take your wife to Europe on a company plane. Your status as a pilot means nothing on other airlines. Buddy passes are worthless, more difficult to jumpseat, etc.
3) More red-eye flying as a percentage of total flying. Southwest doesn't do red-eyes. Just saying.
4) Hotels (and rides to them) are inferior. But to be fair, this saves the company money. Oh, and the 1-2-3 bar deal comes to mind.
5) At the risk of sounding snooty here, there is a correlation between the cost of a ULCC ticket and the... class of individual buying it. Just walk around A terminal in Denver, then do the same in B or C. You'll see what I mean.
6) In flight meals/movies/ovens/first class seating does not exist for pilot benefit in any capacity.
My point? I'm really not trying to complain, just pointing out that the job we do for this business model is more challenging and has less perks than at the Big 4. Like UPS or Fedex, we should be paid more for that.
Not less. Not "industry average."
09-23-2016, 06:22 PM
#5520
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 641
Here is the difference between Frontier and SUDA (Southwest/United/Delta/American):
1) You fly more people per flight. That means more liability- higher chances of a medical or fight on board.
2) Your travel benefits are less relevant. You can't just take your wife to Europe on a company plane. Your status as a pilot means nothing on other airlines. Buddy passes are worthless, more difficult to jumpseat, etc.
3) More red-eye flying as a percentage of total flying. Southwest doesn't do red-eyes. Just saying.
4) Hotels (and rides to them) are inferior. But to be fair, this saves the company money. Oh, and the 1-2-3 bar deal comes to mind.
5) At the risk of sounding snooty here, there is a correlation between the cost of a ULCC ticket and the... class of individual buying it. Just walk around A terminal in Denver, then do the same in B or C. You'll see what I mean.
6) In flight meals/movies/ovens/first class seating does not exist for pilot benefit in any capacity.
My point? I'm really not trying to complain, just pointing out that the job we do for this business model is more challenging and has less perks than at the Big 4. Like UPS or Fedex, we should be paid more for that.
Not less. Not "industry average."
1) You fly more people per flight. That means more liability- higher chances of a medical or fight on board.
2) Your travel benefits are less relevant. You can't just take your wife to Europe on a company plane. Your status as a pilot means nothing on other airlines. Buddy passes are worthless, more difficult to jumpseat, etc.
3) More red-eye flying as a percentage of total flying. Southwest doesn't do red-eyes. Just saying.
4) Hotels (and rides to them) are inferior. But to be fair, this saves the company money. Oh, and the 1-2-3 bar deal comes to mind.
5) At the risk of sounding snooty here, there is a correlation between the cost of a ULCC ticket and the... class of individual buying it. Just walk around A terminal in Denver, then do the same in B or C. You'll see what I mean.
6) In flight meals/movies/ovens/first class seating does not exist for pilot benefit in any capacity.
My point? I'm really not trying to complain, just pointing out that the job we do for this business model is more challenging and has less perks than at the Big 4. Like UPS or Fedex, we should be paid more for that.
Not less. Not "industry average."
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