Frontier Hiring.
02-15-2015, 11:05 AM
#1802
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 69
The most accurate statement to date.
It's hard for most people to understand and internalize the complete lack of what would normally be considered innate human empathy shown by this ownership group and their minions. If they could save one penny by overnighting crews in a ratty Best Western as opposed to the Four Seasons, they'd do it. EVERY decision being made is based SOLELY on money with ZERO value placed on customer or employee satisfaction.
Personal inconvenience and levels of satisfaction--whether employee or passenger--are assigned the value of ZERO.
This approach is similar to how rotten regional airlines are run. Meet minimum performance standards to keep the revenue stream alive. Disgruntled employees will be threatened and otherwise coerced into a minimum level of job performance. Employees who are not trapped here for one reason or another will leave. Costs of attrition will be more than offset by the benefits of having a less senior pilot group. The sifting effect will leave nothing but misfits and indentured servants to fly the airplanes. Who better to carry the water.
Come here as a placeholder. Unless and until this place undergoes a RADICAL transformation, it's not a career airline.
It's hard for most people to understand and internalize the complete lack of what would normally be considered innate human empathy shown by this ownership group and their minions. If they could save one penny by overnighting crews in a ratty Best Western as opposed to the Four Seasons, they'd do it. EVERY decision being made is based SOLELY on money with ZERO value placed on customer or employee satisfaction.
Personal inconvenience and levels of satisfaction--whether employee or passenger--are assigned the value of ZERO.
This approach is similar to how rotten regional airlines are run. Meet minimum performance standards to keep the revenue stream alive. Disgruntled employees will be threatened and otherwise coerced into a minimum level of job performance. Employees who are not trapped here for one reason or another will leave. Costs of attrition will be more than offset by the benefits of having a less senior pilot group. The sifting effect will leave nothing but misfits and indentured servants to fly the airplanes. Who better to carry the water.
Come here as a placeholder. Unless and until this place undergoes a RADICAL transformation, it's not a career airline.
But, thanks to all on this thread. I did use it to help with the process to get hired. As a "recent hire" the best advice I can give...wait for the other airlines that are hiring.
In the year:
Work on your days off to help out, which I've done a few times,can't get paid for any of it.
Straight pay checks always messed up, and no response from payroll.
Two holiday seasons I've been here the company fails. Third year in a row I'm told.
In my first recurrent recently, the CEO said we were underpaid, but our equity makes us overpaid and should be factored into our compensation. Even though I'm not eligible for equity?
If you get hired anywhere else, the chief pilot fires you.
You get the point. What a disappointment from what I heard Frontier was.
Sorry, but have to agree with the "rotten regional" treatment. Keep your records up to date at other, better places.
Monk
02-15-2015, 12:05 PM
#1804
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Very True...
But, thanks to all on this thread. I did use it to help with the process to get hired. As a "recent hire" the best advice I can give...wait for the other airlines that are hiring.
In the year:
Work on your days off to help out, which I've done a few times,can't get paid for any of it.
Straight pay checks always messed up, and no response from payroll.
Two holiday seasons I've been here the company fails. Third year in a row I'm told.
In my first recurrent recently, the CEO said we were underpaid, but our equity makes us overpaid and should be factored into our compensation. Even though I'm not eligible for equity?
If you get hired anywhere else, the chief pilot fires you.
You get the point. What a disappointment from what I heard Frontier was.
Sorry, but have to agree with the "rotten regional" treatment. Keep your records up to date at other, better places.
Monk
But, thanks to all on this thread. I did use it to help with the process to get hired. As a "recent hire" the best advice I can give...wait for the other airlines that are hiring.
In the year:
Work on your days off to help out, which I've done a few times,can't get paid for any of it.
Straight pay checks always messed up, and no response from payroll.
Two holiday seasons I've been here the company fails. Third year in a row I'm told.
In my first recurrent recently, the CEO said we were underpaid, but our equity makes us overpaid and should be factored into our compensation. Even though I'm not eligible for equity?
If you get hired anywhere else, the chief pilot fires you.
You get the point. What a disappointment from what I heard Frontier was.
Sorry, but have to agree with the "rotten regional" treatment. Keep your records up to date at other, better places.
Monk
Please expound: Are you saying you've actually flown on days off and have never been paid for it?!?!?!? And multiple times?
Or do you mean it was VJA but only paid at just strait time? Either way it's bad, but why haven't you visited every stop along your chain of command until properly compensated? I know you shouldn't have to hold their hands to pay you correctly, but certainly you're not saying you're just giving up on getting your money.As far as the equity. It isn't ours! We weren't here, and didn't make the sacrifices. Granted even as newhires we're grossly underpaid too, and it's unacceptable, but I started thinking of it objectively and this is what I arrived at:
... I rent out a couple homes I've picked up over the years. I'm a very fair Landlord, and often draw less revenue than I know I could if I was a bit more business savvy. That being said, if the rental market suddenly dropped by $500 in one of my markets, and my tenant called me and said: "Hey dude, you need to lower my rent because the market dictates it." I would say. "No problem... Once you fulfill your current lease agreement, we can re-negotiate the rent." I know there is risk he might just leave, but to drop his rent out of the goodness of my heart would be poor business." In the same way, our company isn't going to give us a raise until we negotiate at the proper time when our contract is re-open. Then we will get a GIANT raise! As much as I hate to say it, my detractors were correct to point out to me that "I knew what the pay was when I hired on here."
Every airline struggles during winter storms during the Holidays. Big Deal!!! Calling out previous years is pointless because, again, that was the old Frontier, the Frontier we all know was not viable! This last year I'll chalk it up to the monumental growing pains we're experiencing. I'm choosing not to overreact to this.
So the CP fires you if you get hired somewhere else? Do you know this for a fact? Does he do this in every case? Or was it perhaps one individual who possibly brought it on himself? I have no idea, I'm just asking the question. Please give more detail.
And I'm NOT saying that using F9 as a placeholder isn't a wise strategy, but I AM saying no-one-on-this-earth can predict if leaving F9 for Alaska, or Hawaiian (which some have done recently) or even United, Delta or American, will turn out to be a brilliant move. It may very well prove to be utterly STUPID! I speak more to the intrinsic uncertainty of the whole industry, than calling out any particular airline.
Last edited by sulkair; 02-15-2015 at 12:21 PM.
02-15-2015, 01:18 PM
#1806
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 958
Fact. I personally know several (including myself), and I know of several others. Second-hand, I've been told roughly one per month have been leaving and that it's been the same in every case: give your two-weeks notice, get told "make it effective immediately." I've heard (second-hand again) that that's happened a couple of times in the middle of a trip.... I just hope the word has gotten out and people are identifying their "last day" accordingly....
02-15-2015, 02:34 PM
#1807
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
True enough, but then your C-suite shouldn't be saying that (all of) you are over-compensated due to that equity. Any "compensation" comparisons that involve the equity stake (a dubious method, IMO) need to acknowledge that NONE of the 200-ish pilots (speculation, I don't know the actual number) hired since that time have that equity. That's a sizeable percentage of your overall list to ignore when making such a comparison....
Fact. I personally know several (including myself), and I know of several others. Second-hand, I've been told roughly one per month have been leaving and that it's been the same in every case: give your two-weeks notice, get told "make it effective immediately." I've heard (second-hand again) that that's happened a couple of times in the middle of a trip.... I just hope the word has gotten out and people are identifying their "last day" accordingly....
Fact. I personally know several (including myself), and I know of several others. Second-hand, I've been told roughly one per month have been leaving and that it's been the same in every case: give your two-weeks notice, get told "make it effective immediately." I've heard (second-hand again) that that's happened a couple of times in the middle of a trip.... I just hope the word has gotten out and people are identifying their "last day" accordingly....
As far as the company saying "make it effective immediately," just so were clear, it's not a termination correct? Just more of a "we don't need the notice, consider yourself resigned as of today." I'm asking you guys, because I hadn't heard of this until now. Regardless, I agree it's totally $h!!ty, and I can't really see the point of that kind of behavior. Who else does this?
02-15-2015, 02:57 PM
#1808
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Oh I know I'm going to catch hell for this...
Jug - can we be very very honest for a second. I'm a vet so I look up to you officers, and I don't blame you one bit, but lets be real... You guys knew where you were going when you came here. Come on. O's all the way up to full bird with a lifetime built cadre of tight connections and squadron buddies at the big 3 pulling for them... Are they really gonna settle down at little ol' F9?
It was a choice between an RJ or an Airbus to get your 121 time. You chose wisely
Jug - can we be very very honest for a second. I'm a vet so I look up to you officers, and I don't blame you one bit, but lets be real... You guys knew where you were going when you came here. Come on. O's all the way up to full bird with a lifetime built cadre of tight connections and squadron buddies at the big 3 pulling for them... Are they really gonna settle down at little ol' F9?
It was a choice between an RJ or an Airbus to get your 121 time. You chose wisely
02-15-2015, 03:08 PM
#1809
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 69
Sulk,
No confrontation taken at all. The pay issues are junior mans I've had to fight to get paid for. The other pay issues are unbelievable. At my last airline, never an issue. Here? Listen to the people you fly with if they have payroll issues.
The management has zero value for their employees. ZERO. The contract is weak, at best. But they violate it regularly, and intentionally.
Staying? Hmmm...could be huge gamble to stay or go, like anything. There is a fight to be had at here to make it better. But it will be a fight.
Monk
No confrontation taken at all. The pay issues are junior mans I've had to fight to get paid for. The other pay issues are unbelievable. At my last airline, never an issue. Here? Listen to the people you fly with if they have payroll issues.
The management has zero value for their employees. ZERO. The contract is weak, at best. But they violate it regularly, and intentionally.
Staying? Hmmm...could be huge gamble to stay or go, like anything. There is a fight to be had at here to make it better. But it will be a fight.
Monk
02-15-2015, 04:35 PM
#1810
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 491
Sulk:
I'm not sure why you're parsing the comments made by Monkey and Jug.
There's not much difference between being fired immediately and being told that your 2 week resignation is effective immediately. It's a slightly more polite way of being fired immediately. I don't think it's much of a stretch to characterize it as being fired immediately. Move on.
As for Monkey's comments, he made the mistake of using a bit of hyperbole and spoke in terms of absolutes. Never say 'never' when trying to be persuasive because somebody will point out that you should have said 'most of the time' or 'many times' in an attempt to discredit you and, hence, your argument.
His points are valid:
1. Payroll is frequently incorrect.
2. Payroll is frequently slow to respond or completely unresponsive to pilot inquiries concerning payroll.
3. It is sometimes a challenge to get paid in unusual situations after you've gone above and beyond to be a team player and help out.
4. Holiday meltdowns ARE very common here. FYI: most of the management has been here for several years, so yes, prior screw ups CAN be pinned on current management and ongoing mismanagement. Our problems today, new business plan notwithstanding, are virtually identical to the problems we've had in the past.
The CEO's mention of our equity stake in the same breath as compensation is absurd. That equity stake was bought and paid for years ago. It is not and can not be considered present day compensation. It hasn't paid a dime and may never pay a dime. The CEO's mention of it during recurrent ground school was an attempt to get the discussion going and to drive a wedge between new hires and the rest of the pilot group. It won't be the last time management will bring it up.
I believe you are suffering the lingering effects management's bs rah-rah speech offered during recurrent ground school. I prescribe a 5 day trip consisting of at least a couple TTN and MKE overnights as a cure for this affliction.
I'm not sure why you're parsing the comments made by Monkey and Jug.
There's not much difference between being fired immediately and being told that your 2 week resignation is effective immediately. It's a slightly more polite way of being fired immediately. I don't think it's much of a stretch to characterize it as being fired immediately. Move on.
As for Monkey's comments, he made the mistake of using a bit of hyperbole and spoke in terms of absolutes. Never say 'never' when trying to be persuasive because somebody will point out that you should have said 'most of the time' or 'many times' in an attempt to discredit you and, hence, your argument.
His points are valid:
1. Payroll is frequently incorrect.
2. Payroll is frequently slow to respond or completely unresponsive to pilot inquiries concerning payroll.
3. It is sometimes a challenge to get paid in unusual situations after you've gone above and beyond to be a team player and help out.
4. Holiday meltdowns ARE very common here. FYI: most of the management has been here for several years, so yes, prior screw ups CAN be pinned on current management and ongoing mismanagement. Our problems today, new business plan notwithstanding, are virtually identical to the problems we've had in the past.
The CEO's mention of our equity stake in the same breath as compensation is absurd. That equity stake was bought and paid for years ago. It is not and can not be considered present day compensation. It hasn't paid a dime and may never pay a dime. The CEO's mention of it during recurrent ground school was an attempt to get the discussion going and to drive a wedge between new hires and the rest of the pilot group. It won't be the last time management will bring it up.
I believe you are suffering the lingering effects management's bs rah-rah speech offered during recurrent ground school. I prescribe a 5 day trip consisting of at least a couple TTN and MKE overnights as a cure for this affliction.
Last edited by OpenClimb; 02-15-2015 at 04:37 PM. Reason: Added a smiley for emphasis.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
4 Fan Trashcan
Mergers and Acquisitions
7
01-28-2009 09:27 AM
