dfwflyboy

Just out of curiosity. F9 guys and gals, do you think a better contract will come after snapback in 2017? There's eventually got to be equal pay for type. Average A320 pay tops out 180-200.
Dost thou have faith?!

OpenClimb

I think it all depends on the pilot group and our willingness and ability to strike if it comes down to that.

Our current ownership is a bunch of ruthless businessmen. They place somewhere between 'very little' and 'zero' value on employee morale. They have shown a willingness to pinch pennies like nobody I've ever seen. I can't imagine they won't take negotiations down to the wire when the time comes.

Historically and overall, right or wrong, the F9 pilot group has considered itself partners with management in the success and continued existence of the airline. Historically, we have believed management's pitch that if we don't work for less the airline won't survive.

If the same group of people persuade the pilot group to believe what will no doubt be a strong Company sales pitch during the next contract negotiations, then, NO, things won't get better. We'll continue to work for less than market rates.

The billion dollar question in the next contract negotiation will be whether or not the same group of people will have the persuasive might to influence the outcome. Much of the old guard is now as ****ed off as the newer (6-10 year) folks. Some of the old persuasive folks from contract 2005 will have retired by 2016-2017. The old "I'd do this job for half what they pay me" mentality will be diluted by the new hires (between now and 2016 probably 50% of the group) that have mainline carrier earnings expectations.

There are tons of variables and nobody really knows which will carry the day. You pays your money and takes your chances.

I'm really hoping that we don't turn into a regional-esqe carrier who happens to fly narrow body aircraft. The kind of place where the only reason anybody comes is because there's hope of a quick upgrade and the only reason anybody stays is that they haven't been hired by a better carrier… yet.

Jughead135

I hope so, too--your pilot group deserves better. But, isn't the current hiring model (discussed in this thread: passing up anyone with potential* to leave, focusing on East Coast addresses, etc.) going to weight the group with folks who fit that description, at least among the new hires??



*deliberately vague term; not trying to re-open the argument about "over qualified" pilots

sulkair

OpenClimb, would you say Spirit overcame this risk? Sadly, Allegiant mirrors your description, at least for now.

Wanttofly10

New to the board and without reading all of the 167 pages of this subject....looking for some help on applying or not.

I was very eager to apply at Frontier, until about 3 wks ago I was on a Frontier jumpseat. The crew was great (the reason I wanted Frontier) but very open on how things are. I was still thinking about it, but now after reading the "F9 Discussion" subject I am considering not even applying. Unfortunately everything I was told on the jumpseat was exactly what was written in the F9 Discussion. Not being paid, contract violations, all sound like a hostile work environment.

Any ideas or insight? Thanks for the help.

OpenClimb

Hmm. If the risk we're talking about is being a pass-through job rather than a career airline, then I guess my answer is a qualified 'yes.' A yes with an asterisk.

Yes to the extent any single-type, narrowbody, domestic, relatively small, low cost carrier will ever be seen as a career airline.

I can't imagine that there are a large number of young aspiring pilots who dream of spending a 40 year airline career at a low cost carrier... any low cost carrier. It'd be like some MBA-educated stud dreaming of managing a Dollar Store one day. I suppose it happens, but it's not common.

A career at a low cost carrier will be a viable option for some for a variety of different reasons, but it'll never be the Brass Ring.

With all this being said, Spirit did well in their latest contract. They have a decent pay scale and decent work rules. I know several people of varying levels of seniority over there and they seem mostly happy. The story I hear is that they face a harsh management style hell-bent on pinching pennies no matter what the cost. Sound familiar?

Aside from the bitter relationship with management, the other factor that can't be overlooked when considering a career with an ULCC is the less than stellar relationship we have with our customers. It really takes a toll on me, personally, to hear the constant complaints from our customers. This is part and parcel to the ULCC model. If they're not at least a little disappointed with the product, you're probably doing it too well and spending a little too much money.

The key to a successful ULCC airline is finding the perfect balance between providing a product that's cheep, but not so shoddy as to cause passengers to book with a different carrier. The same principle apples to hiring and keeping employees.

Like I said before, lots of moving parts.

OpenClimb

Come on over. Use it as a placeholder if it works for your career. I wouldn't leave a regional (if that's where you are) until you've got at least 1000 PIC. Other than that, even in our current state, Frontier is probably better than any regional. How's that for a rousing endorsement? Maybe I can license that catch-phrase to our pilot recruiters for use at the next hiring event.

crflyer

I feel like most would come to F9 because they DON'T have the TPIC. Why would someone go to F9 if they have a decent QOL and are a regional captain? They'll get called by someone else soon enough. I don't see the advantage of starting all over again unless they're fine with staying at F9. FO's that have no upgrade in sight are the ones looking to go. 1000 TPIC isn't some magic number.

sulkair

In a decade I never flew with a CA at Mesa who owned his own airplane. I have already flow with nearly half a dozen here that do... LOL - thats gotta say something! You can stand up in the cockpit. You can do 2 legs and clock 8 hours. Airbus is super comfortable. No hot reserve. You get to be a Major airline pilot and fly with the coolest laidback dudes in the biz - (I've never had this much fun going from point A to B) ...Just some positives for you.

sulkair

thoughtful answer - thanks Open!