it's official FAPA is negotiating lower rates
06-03-2011, 08:11 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Adding military into Pineapple's idea
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
. . . here's what I'd do.
1. ALPA National tracks career dues
2. When a merger occurs, you "stovepipe" each sides' dues amounts without putting names to them. Then merger those dues amounts, such that the new list is an integrated list of slots for each airline. Then fill in those slots based on pre-merger lists of each group. So you never pass anyone on your own list because of dues, but it is used collectively to determine the integration method.
1. ALPA National tracks career dues
2. When a merger occurs, you "stovepipe" each sides' dues amounts without putting names to them. Then merger those dues amounts, such that the new list is an integrated list of slots for each airline. Then fill in those slots based on pre-merger lists of each group. So you never pass anyone on your own list because of dues, but it is used collectively to determine the integration method.
Perhaps a compromise would be to allow military pilots (or any other non-union pilot) to voluntarily contribute 2% of their income to a union of their choice (taxation w/o representation, but, it's voluntary). This way, the longer a military pilot commits, the greater their dues built up. Each year of active service as a military pilot would then roughly equate to the same amount of time as a civilian union member (or perhaps more, given the loss of wages in the civil sector over the past decade) and allow a military pilot to slot into seniority with someone with a similar amount of time as a professional pilot. If HR departments continue to value internal recommendations and military officer experience, than separating military pilots will continue to be rewarded with the increased income of mainline carrier positions befitting their 'more qualified' status, despite perhaps being junior on the global list to a senior RJ CA for the purposes of integration and seniority determination within a company they both work for in the future.
Everyone would start @ 0, say, Jan. 1, 2012. Those RJ and military pilots with higher incomes (senior officers and senior CA's @ regionals) would build up dues $ faster than those who are junior FO's @ regionals or in UPT. First year of UPT is probation, so, just like the regionals, no ability to build up dues income.
Anyway, just an idea. I'm sure there's a gaping hole in my thought process.
06-03-2011, 08:11 AM
#52
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
I'm about to head out on a vacation for a week, but if you are actually interested, here's what I'd do.
1. ALPA National tracks career dues
2. When a merger occurs, you "stovepipe" each sides' dues amounts without putting names to them. Then merger those dues amounts, such that the new list is an integrated list of slots for each airline. Then fill in those slots based on pre-merger lists of each group. So you never pass anyone on your own list because of dues, but it is used collectively to determine the integration method.
3. This can also be used if your airline goes out of business. BUT, you have to go through the normal hiring process at the new airline, and get hired. THEN, the same process would apply and you would be slotted in appropriately, but still at first year pay and benefits. That's still better than nothing, as presently stands.
4. We could even use this if you want to quit and go to another airline. In that case, as a compromise to the new pilot group, you take some determined penalty (20%?) by reducing your dues credit, before doing the integration. That penalizes those fleeing the sinking ship, but would likely be required to get the acquiring pilots to accept you in, particularly if you were somewhat responsible for the sinking...
These are all just thoughts. All of this could be modified, if we could find a cadre of pilots willing to get together to try something different. What we presently have certainly isn't working. Just look at all of the animosity of mergers, or worse yet, the devastation of careers when airlines go bankrupt. Age 50 is too old to start over like a 23 year old, yet that's exactly what we do to our most experience pilots, when they suffer under a pathetic management team.
I'll be glad to continue the discussion upon my return.
1. ALPA National tracks career dues
2. When a merger occurs, you "stovepipe" each sides' dues amounts without putting names to them. Then merger those dues amounts, such that the new list is an integrated list of slots for each airline. Then fill in those slots based on pre-merger lists of each group. So you never pass anyone on your own list because of dues, but it is used collectively to determine the integration method.
3. This can also be used if your airline goes out of business. BUT, you have to go through the normal hiring process at the new airline, and get hired. THEN, the same process would apply and you would be slotted in appropriately, but still at first year pay and benefits. That's still better than nothing, as presently stands.
4. We could even use this if you want to quit and go to another airline. In that case, as a compromise to the new pilot group, you take some determined penalty (20%?) by reducing your dues credit, before doing the integration. That penalizes those fleeing the sinking ship, but would likely be required to get the acquiring pilots to accept you in, particularly if you were somewhat responsible for the sinking...
These are all just thoughts. All of this could be modified, if we could find a cadre of pilots willing to get together to try something different. What we presently have certainly isn't working. Just look at all of the animosity of mergers, or worse yet, the devastation of careers when airlines go bankrupt. Age 50 is too old to start over like a 23 year old, yet that's exactly what we do to our most experience pilots, when they suffer under a pathetic management team.
I'll be glad to continue the discussion upon my return.
Always up for debate. I know this is one thing that is very divisive, as former mil guys want a way to protect this career path, but many others feel that's unfair to non mil guys. It'd also be hard to determine the relative weighting, but that could all be worked out in the details.
I'm for ANYTHING other than our present system. Always have been, always will.
I'm for ANYTHING other than our present system. Always have been, always will.
fwiw, I'm not for a NSL, I see it as a really bad idea.
06-03-2011, 08:18 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
So, what exactly is FAPA considering in this 'concessionary' contract? If it's not Airbus hourly rates, than I'm thinking work rule give backs, EMB-190 rates that allow FAPA pilots to competitively fly EMB-190's vs. IBT RAH pilots, or something else?
06-03-2011, 08:19 AM
#55
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
06-03-2011, 08:21 AM
#56
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
Now if that new employer merges with another airline, you would jump ahead of your current contemporaries.
06-03-2011, 08:26 AM
#57
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
No, because the NSL has NOTHING to do with voluntary job changing. It only comes into play in merger/acquisitions. If you quit to go to a new employer, you start at the bottom of their seniority list.
Now if that new employer merges with another airline, you would jump ahead of your current contemporaries.
Now if that new employer merges with another airline, you would jump ahead of your current contemporaries.
3. This can also be used if your airline goes out of business. BUT, you have to go through the normal hiring process at the new airline, and get hired. THEN, the same process would apply and you would be slotted in appropriately, but still at first year pay and benefits. That's still better than nothing, as presently stands.
4. We could even use this if you want to quit and go to another airline. In that case, as a compromise to the new pilot group, you take some determined penalty (20%?) by reducing your dues credit, before doing the integration. That penalizes those fleeing the sinking ship, but would likely be required to get the acquiring pilots to accept you in, particularly if you were somewhat responsible for the sinking...
4. We could even use this if you want to quit and go to another airline. In that case, as a compromise to the new pilot group, you take some determined penalty (20%?) by reducing your dues credit, before doing the integration. That penalizes those fleeing the sinking ship, but would likely be required to get the acquiring pilots to accept you in, particularly if you were somewhat responsible for the sinking...
Doesn't seem worth going through the trouble if it's only for M&A.
06-03-2011, 08:31 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
If you choose to go to a non-union airline with a work agreement (no contract) designed to allow quick growth for the company, but an agreement that undermines union pilots to get those lower costs, than you give up the ability to continue to grow your seniority on the national list.
If your company eventually turns into Southwest, you win the lottery, and are rewarded for your gamble - you're a senior CA @ a stable company. If your company turns into one of the many other places that failed (say, Skybus), the time you spent @ Skybus is time you were unable to build up your personal global seniority, which will hurt your seniority for the rest of your career if you ever are hired @ a union carrier.
06-03-2011, 10:01 AM
#60
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,038
They did their job, I did mine. Neither of us deserves any credit on the other's list.
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