it's official FAPA is negotiating lower rates
06-12-2011, 11:50 PM
#151
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 48
So where do you draw the line? How much do they take from everyone until you say enough is enough? When do you stand up and tell management that it's their problem. Other airlines figure out how to make money and pay decent wages and Frontier should be able to as well. Either way you guys will do what you think you need to do which is fine, I don't expect anything less. I'm just saying I think the management team is setting you guys up. You're about to get in bed with the devil. As for people liking their jobs, you should talk to some of the ex Midwest gate agents or mechanics in MKE or at some of the upper midwest out stations.
I think I'll draw the line at the exact same place you did when you applied and chose to go to work for RAH. You hypocrite. How dare you even think you have any right to judge FAPA pilots for doing the exact same thing you did: LOOKING OUT FOR YOURSELF. You didn't give one sh*t about the profession or your fellow employees when you chose to work for RAH. All you cared about was yourself. Let me guess, your decision was based on the fact that you would upgrade in less than a year, get your PIC time and move on. So i guess that made it okay. Unfortunately for you things didn't go quite as you planned, and now you're stuck flying for sh*t wages, sh*tty work rules, and under the sh*tty leadership of the IBT. I understand why the RAH regulars here are so bitter. Every day that goes by, they are getting older and their careers have effectively stalled. On top of that, the majority of the RAH captains look over at the airbus and they realize that FO is making more than they are. Then the RAH FO goes to Johnny Rockets in MKE and realizes that the guy flipping his burger is making about the same as he is. I don't blame you for being p*ssed at life. I would be too, if I were in your shoes, but I'm not.
So, before you get on an annonymous forum with your idealistic drivel, maybe stop and think about the choices you've made and how that is the reason you are where you are in life. And for the record, you're correct, we will do what we feel we need to do. My question is why do you feel the need to expect anything from us? How about you expect a little more from yourself instead? I just don't understand why, oh why, do you all care so much about what us dumb, gullible FAPA pilots do? Huh? Why? And don't give me this "while we were picketing outside, FAPA were negotiating concessions" BS, cause that's all it is--BS!! Remember, while other Regionals were trying to improve their pay and work rules, you were quick to undermine them by working for RAH. So before you post your stupid thoughts from that high horse the IBT is passing around, ask yourself this: What have I done that wasn't self-serving? You'll find that the answer is exactly what I look forward to reading from you and your fellow bitter IBT "brothers"---NOTHING!
Unrespectfully (respect is earned),
Mojito
Last edited by Mojito; 06-13-2011 at 12:11 AM.
06-13-2011, 05:50 AM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 879
06-13-2011, 05:58 AM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320A
Posts: 333
Trojan,
I think I'll draw the line at the exact same place you did when you applied and chose to go to work for RAH. You hypocrite. How dare you even think you have any right to judge FAPA pilots for doing the exact same thing you did: LOOKING OUT FOR YOURSELF. You didn't give one sh*t about the profession or your fellow employees when you chose to work for RAH. All you cared about was yourself. Let me guess, your decision was based on the fact that you would upgrade in less than a year, get your PIC time and move on. So i guess that made it okay. Unfortunately for you things didn't go quite as you planned, and now you're stuck flying for sh*t wages, sh*tty work rules, and under the sh*tty leadership of the IBT. I understand why the RAH regulars here are so bitter. Every day that goes by, they are getting older and their careers have effectively stalled. On top of that, the majority of the RAH captains look over at the airbus and they realize that FO is making more than they are. Then the RAH FO goes to Johnny Rockets in MKE and realizes that the guy flipping his burger is making about the same as he is. I don't blame you for being p*ssed at life. I would be too, if I were in your shoes, but I'm not.
So, before you get on an annonymous forum with your idealistic drivel, maybe stop and think about the choices you've made and how that is the reason you are where you are in life. And for the record, you're correct, we will do what we feel we need to do. My question is why do you feel the need to expect anything from us? How about you expect a little more from yourself instead? I just don't understand why, oh why, do you all care so much about what us dumb, gullible FAPA pilots do? Huh? Why? And don't give me this "while we were picketing outside, FAPA were negotiating concessions" BS, cause that's all it is--BS!! Remember, while other Regionals were trying to improve their pay and work rules, you were quick to undermine them by working for RAH. So before you post your stupid thoughts from that high horse the IBT is passing around, ask yourself this: What have I done that wasn't self-serving? You'll find that the answer is exactly what I look forward to reading from you and your fellow bitter IBT "brothers"---NOTHING!
Unrespectfully (respect is earned),
Mojito
I think I'll draw the line at the exact same place you did when you applied and chose to go to work for RAH. You hypocrite. How dare you even think you have any right to judge FAPA pilots for doing the exact same thing you did: LOOKING OUT FOR YOURSELF. You didn't give one sh*t about the profession or your fellow employees when you chose to work for RAH. All you cared about was yourself. Let me guess, your decision was based on the fact that you would upgrade in less than a year, get your PIC time and move on. So i guess that made it okay. Unfortunately for you things didn't go quite as you planned, and now you're stuck flying for sh*t wages, sh*tty work rules, and under the sh*tty leadership of the IBT. I understand why the RAH regulars here are so bitter. Every day that goes by, they are getting older and their careers have effectively stalled. On top of that, the majority of the RAH captains look over at the airbus and they realize that FO is making more than they are. Then the RAH FO goes to Johnny Rockets in MKE and realizes that the guy flipping his burger is making about the same as he is. I don't blame you for being p*ssed at life. I would be too, if I were in your shoes, but I'm not.
So, before you get on an annonymous forum with your idealistic drivel, maybe stop and think about the choices you've made and how that is the reason you are where you are in life. And for the record, you're correct, we will do what we feel we need to do. My question is why do you feel the need to expect anything from us? How about you expect a little more from yourself instead? I just don't understand why, oh why, do you all care so much about what us dumb, gullible FAPA pilots do? Huh? Why? And don't give me this "while we were picketing outside, FAPA were negotiating concessions" BS, cause that's all it is--BS!! Remember, while other Regionals were trying to improve their pay and work rules, you were quick to undermine them by working for RAH. So before you post your stupid thoughts from that high horse the IBT is passing around, ask yourself this: What have I done that wasn't self-serving? You'll find that the answer is exactly what I look forward to reading from you and your fellow bitter IBT "brothers"---NOTHING!
Unrespectfully (respect is earned),
Mojito
06-13-2011, 06:47 AM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 121
So what tangible are the F9 pilots getting in return for concessions???? If you do not get something tangible you are foolish. When BB lent money to airways did he do it for nothing of course not. He got collateral in the form of slots at LGA, DCA, etc. If FAPA got some collateral from BB that had value good for them. If they did not then this may go down as the stupidest move in a long time.
06-13-2011, 06:47 AM
#156
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,269
Jet Blue 7 year rates: 149/98
Delta Airbus 7 year rates: 162/104
Frontier 7 year rates: 138/85
Just saying...
So besides maybe Virgin you guys are the lowest paid pilots on the type of equipment you're flying. Us on the FFD side are some of the lowest paid on the types we fly. We do have that in common, however most here have stood up and said enough is enough and are demanding to be paid more while you're sitting over at your "career" airline deciding how to make it even worse. And you're right RAH sucks. I wish I knew as much as I know now when I decided to sign my life away in hopes of moving onto someplace better. I'm sure your mom just pushed you right out into the right seat of an Airbus but some of us had to start somewhere. I'm not a hypocrite as I am trying to leave and get on with a place that pays and treats it's employees with a little respect. You are staying and turning Frontier, a once decent place, into a glorified regional. Keep it up... BB isn't your buddy and you'll get nothing in return from these concessions. So go have another Mojito, you're gonna need it once you sign these concessions in and BB throws you under the bus like he has with every other pilot group he's worked with.
Last edited by TrojanCMH; 06-13-2011 at 07:04 AM.
06-13-2011, 07:01 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: retired
Posts: 992
Unless there is something in LOA 67 that we don't know about, the title of this thread seems to be very misleading. I'm not seeing where FAPA is giving up all that much. They've given up a pay increase to snap back rates but are the longevity increases still there. Vacation and sick leave accrual reductions and 401K matching are small prices to pay to keep work rules intact, which is even more important than pay rates. This looks very similar to what the Midwest pilots gave up when management threatened bankruptcy early in the last decade. Those concessions, which came with stock options, did expire and if one didn't hold on to the stock for any length of time, were actually worth something .
When Seabury made draconian demands on the Midwest contract shortly before Repubic bought us, they wanted the RAH pay scale and no work rules (basically work to FARs) which was, of course, unacceptable.
What I don't understand is what happens to all these agreements with FAPA when they are no longer the CBA for Frontier? Management will just say FAPA doesn't exist anymore than the ALPA contract with the Midwest pilots, therefore the agreements are moot and IBT will have to negotiate the Bus pay scale. (gasp)
This all seems like a man with terminal cancer maxing out his credit cards.
When Seabury made draconian demands on the Midwest contract shortly before Repubic bought us, they wanted the RAH pay scale and no work rules (basically work to FARs) which was, of course, unacceptable.
What I don't understand is what happens to all these agreements with FAPA when they are no longer the CBA for Frontier? Management will just say FAPA doesn't exist anymore than the ALPA contract with the Midwest pilots, therefore the agreements are moot and IBT will have to negotiate the Bus pay scale. (gasp)
This all seems like a man with terminal cancer maxing out his credit cards.
06-13-2011, 09:56 AM
#159
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 48
Jet Blue 7 year rates: 149/98
Delta Airbus 7 year rates: 162/104
Frontier 7 year rates: 138/85
Just saying...
So besides maybe Virgin you guys are the lowest paid pilots on the type of equipment you're flying. Us on the FFD side are some of the lowest paid on the types we fly. We do have that in common, however most here have stood up and said enough is enough and are demanding to be paid more while you're sitting over at your "career" airline deciding how to make it even worse. And you're right RAH sucks. I wish I knew as much as I know now when I decided to sign my life away in hopes of moving onto someplace better. I'm sure your mom just pushed you right out into the right seat of an Airbus but some of us had to start somewhere. I'm not a hypocrite as I am trying to leave and get on with a place that pays and treats it's employees with a little respect. You are staying and turning Frontier, a once decent place, into a glorified regional. Keep it up... BB isn't your buddy and you'll get nothing in return from these concessions. So go have another Mojito, you're gonna need it once you sign these concessions in and BB throws you under the bus like he has with every other pilot group he's worked with.
Delta Airbus 7 year rates: 162/104
Frontier 7 year rates: 138/85
Just saying...
So besides maybe Virgin you guys are the lowest paid pilots on the type of equipment you're flying. Us on the FFD side are some of the lowest paid on the types we fly. We do have that in common, however most here have stood up and said enough is enough and are demanding to be paid more while you're sitting over at your "career" airline deciding how to make it even worse. And you're right RAH sucks. I wish I knew as much as I know now when I decided to sign my life away in hopes of moving onto someplace better. I'm sure your mom just pushed you right out into the right seat of an Airbus but some of us had to start somewhere. I'm not a hypocrite as I am trying to leave and get on with a place that pays and treats it's employees with a little respect. You are staying and turning Frontier, a once decent place, into a glorified regional. Keep it up... BB isn't your buddy and you'll get nothing in return from these concessions. So go have another Mojito, you're gonna need it once you sign these concessions in and BB throws you under the bus like he has with every other pilot group he's worked with.
Like I said before, when it comes down to it, we all do what is best for us. If the economy was better and we were in a different point in the aviation cycle, you wouldn't be "standing up and saying enough is enough" you'd be out the door at the first opportunity. The reason you're "standing up" now is because you realize you might be there for a while, so now, "standing" up is what serves YOU best. So I stand behind my statement. You are a hypocrite.
Believe me, I know BB is not my friend. I don't expect him to be. I don't want him to be. So, no problem there. Not exactly sure what the point of that was, but I guess I'll humor everything you write. As for making my "career" airline worse, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion. But I imagine Frontier liquidating would make it even worse than what you are accusing us of doing. But then again, that's not a possibility, because BB is just playing us, right? We all know there has never been an airline that has failed and disappeared
In your mind, based on all the BS the IBT feeds you, we aren't getting anything for our "concessions" as you wrote above. But as I see it, we are getting something huge: an opportunity to be separated from RAH and IBT. granted, it's just an opportunity and in no way guaranteed, but at least most of our "concessions" come back if it doesn't happen. That to me is huge. Given your reaction and the IBTs reaction to this information, it's huge to you too, but for very different reasons, I'm sure. I'll ask one more time, why do you care so much what happens at Frontier? You've made it clear you'd never work here, so why are you investing so much time in what FAPA pilots do? Can you imagine how much better off you'd be if instead you invested that time in improving your own situation?
Here's to us being separate once again!
06-13-2011, 10:12 AM
#160
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,030
Unless there is something in LOA 67 that we don't know about, the title of this thread seems to be very misleading. I'm not seeing where FAPA is giving up all that much. They've given up a pay increase to snap back rates but are the longevity increases still there. Vacation and sick leave accrual reductions and 401K matching are small prices to pay to keep work rules intact, which is even more important than pay rates. This looks very similar to what the Midwest pilots gave up when management threatened bankruptcy early in the last decade. Those concessions, which came with stock options, did expire and if one didn't hold on to the stock for any length of time, were actually worth something.
When Seabury made draconian demands on the Midwest contract shortly before Repubic bought us, they wanted the RAH pay scale and no work rules (basically work to FARs) which was, of course, unacceptable.
What I don't understand is what happens to all these agreements with FAPA when they are no longer the CBA for Frontier? Management will just say FAPA doesn't exist anymore than the ALPA contract with the Midwest pilots, therefore the agreements are moot and IBT will have to negotiate the Bus pay scale. (gasp)
This all seems like a man with terminal cancer maxing out his credit cards.
When Seabury made draconian demands on the Midwest contract shortly before Repubic bought us, they wanted the RAH pay scale and no work rules (basically work to FARs) which was, of course, unacceptable.
What I don't understand is what happens to all these agreements with FAPA when they are no longer the CBA for Frontier? Management will just say FAPA doesn't exist anymore than the ALPA contract with the Midwest pilots, therefore the agreements are moot and IBT will have to negotiate the Bus pay scale. (gasp)
This all seems like a man with terminal cancer maxing out his credit cards.
First, everybody knows payrates are only part of the equation. But you wouldn't because both sides of your equation suck. Second, I did the regional thing, just like you. Difference is, I chose a better company to work for, stayed for 7 years, and when my wife got a promotion and salary that makes both of our salaries combined seem modest, I was able to afford the pay cut to go Frontier. I would gladly give up 15-20 grand a year to not have to commute, to live where I want, get the schedules I want and spend all that extra time with my family. These are MY priorities. They are called work rules. The IBT should really look into it.
Like I said before, when it comes down to it, we all do what is best for us. If the economy was better and we were in a different point in the aviation cycle, you wouldn't be "standing up and saying enough is enough" you'd be out the door at the first opportunity. The reason you're "standing up" now is because you realize you might be there for a while, so now, "standing" up is what serves YOU best. So I stand behind my statement. You are a hypocrite.
Believe me, I know BB is not my friend. I don't expect him to be. I don't want him to be. So, no problem there. Not exactly sure what the point of that was, but I guess I'll humor everything you write. As for making my "career" airline worse, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion. But I imagine Frontier liquidating would make it even worse than what you are accusing us of doing. But then again, that's not a possibility, because BB is just playing us, right? We all know there has never been an airline that has failed and disappeared
In your mind, based on all the BS the IBT feeds you, we aren't getting anything for our "concessions" as you wrote above. But as I see it, we are getting something huge: an opportunity to be separated from RAH and IBT. granted, it's just an opportunity and in no way guaranteed, but at least most of our "concessions" come back if it doesn't happen. That to me is huge. Given your reaction and the IBTs reaction to this information, it's huge to you too, but for very different reasons, I'm sure. I'll ask one more time, why do you care so much what happens at Frontier? You've made it clear you'd never work here, so why are you investing so much time in what FAPA pilots do? Can you imagine how much better off you'd be if instead you invested that time in improving your own situation?
Here's to us being separate once again!
Like I said before, when it comes down to it, we all do what is best for us. If the economy was better and we were in a different point in the aviation cycle, you wouldn't be "standing up and saying enough is enough" you'd be out the door at the first opportunity. The reason you're "standing up" now is because you realize you might be there for a while, so now, "standing" up is what serves YOU best. So I stand behind my statement. You are a hypocrite.
Believe me, I know BB is not my friend. I don't expect him to be. I don't want him to be. So, no problem there. Not exactly sure what the point of that was, but I guess I'll humor everything you write. As for making my "career" airline worse, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion. But I imagine Frontier liquidating would make it even worse than what you are accusing us of doing. But then again, that's not a possibility, because BB is just playing us, right? We all know there has never been an airline that has failed and disappeared
In your mind, based on all the BS the IBT feeds you, we aren't getting anything for our "concessions" as you wrote above. But as I see it, we are getting something huge: an opportunity to be separated from RAH and IBT. granted, it's just an opportunity and in no way guaranteed, but at least most of our "concessions" come back if it doesn't happen. That to me is huge. Given your reaction and the IBTs reaction to this information, it's huge to you too, but for very different reasons, I'm sure. I'll ask one more time, why do you care so much what happens at Frontier? You've made it clear you'd never work here, so why are you investing so much time in what FAPA pilots do? Can you imagine how much better off you'd be if instead you invested that time in improving your own situation?
Here's to us being separate once again!
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