Originally Posted by flyguy23

Easy guys. No scope relief will be required as Bedford has already made it known to both parties he wants a full seniority list integration. Just because he wants to fly 190s out there doesn't mean he won't grow the airbus side of thing as well.

Originally Posted by STILL GROUNDED

Actually unless something new has been released this is not the case at all. He wants to keep the companies separate but allowing him free scope. He does not want to integrate the groups. Here's why, IMHO...

BB puts E190's on routes served by A318s. Returns or sells the 318's furloughs the higher paid flight crews and has no obligation to put them to work at RW S5 or CHQ. They are simply on the street. Next the 319's get whittled down with 195's or new 130 seat Crj's. IF RAH were to win the auction, and there is much more to it then simple cash so there is still a possiblity that they do. The frontier pilots (at the risk of , ego's, lower pay whatever it is.) will be shooting themselves in the foot and should prepare for the whipsawing of a lifetime if they support the ideas on NO integration. Most of us at RAH are not against some sort of reasonable fense, we are however completely against 2 senority lists. We fought against it before and we'll walk for it now! We'd like to grow a company together not tear one down around itself by fighting with in.

Originally Posted by Patch

I don't think any of us (SWA pilots) can tell you what the criteria should or should not be. There are entirely too many moving parts involved with any specific merger or acquisition to create a magical set of rules. In the end, it doesn't really matter because the company is going to do what they want when it comes to SLI. We're simply the bus drivers. However, in this deal, we as the pilot group (so they say) have the power to say no and the deal will fall through. I'm not looking for spears here, but the concensus of the guys I've talked to want a staple with pay and domicile protection for the Frontier guys. I wouldn't be completely opposed to some sort of SLI for the upper echelon pilots, but a DOH SLI is a complete and utter screw job to the younger pilots of the successfull airline bailing out the bankrupt one. I personally think this deal will get voted down by the majority of us unless it's a staple. -- Just my 2 cents
We're not the socialist States of America. (just yet.) In life, there are winners and losers in business. The answer is always somewhere in the middle. In the end, I do hope we take on their pilots in some way shape or form. They're a great bunch. Cheers..

Patch

Originally Posted by MTOP

Agree 100 percent with Patch.

First, I'm not a SWA pilot, but have been through this before, and more than once, and make no mistake about it, there is no logic, reason or precedent for the pilot list of a failed airline dictating to the pilots and management of a successful acquiring carrier, that they have the seniority list integration, "just so" and their way.

You are not going to see a formulaic integration in a SWA-F9 merger, I'm betting. And why would there be? Frontier seniority has no value at Southwest. Frontier pilots were not hired at Southwest, have not contributed to the success of Southwest in any way, or to any degree. If rewarding seniority has any basis at all, it is at a particular carrier, not ANY carrier. In other, words, there is a reason why you do not carry seniority from company to company.

Need historical perspective on how it works? Take a look at the AA-Reno Air merger.

Enjoy.

Originally Posted by F9er

From my personal perspective as a junior F9 guy, a staple is cool with me

I keep hearing guys talk about RAH and doubling the "Frontier" brand, which does sound great, we all love Frontier. Its time for everyone to wake up and realize that its over, look to the future and ask yourself where would I rather be in 10 years?

Personally, SWA, its a no brainer.

I think any "growth" at F9 (if we were purchased by RAH) would either be 76 seat RJ's (our scope wont allow anything bigger) and IF, I mean a big IF we do purchase more Airbus's the Repbulic guys will have there hands all over them with the "we saved your butt, so its ours to fly" mentality.

So who do I want to be flying with in 10 years? A respected airline who's entire business model is growth, (i.e. we wont be at the bottom forever) or slinging gear on our airbus for a 5 year Republic captain who was able to jump ship after the fence was down.....tough choice for me

Originally Posted by Seabat 33

The Bond-McCaskill law does not appear to establish any substantive right to employment. The Bond-McCaskill amendment does not require a carrier to hire the employees of another carrier.

Originally Posted by Bake

There is a 3rd option no one is thinking about. SWA outbids RAH for the deal, SWAPA and FAPA don't come to an acceptable conclusion (I hope they do), SWA goes to SWAPA and cuts a deal to make an exception to the current contract. Now, SWA owns F9, runs it separately until a given date and then shuts it down while owning the certificate. Now, All f9 are out of a job with RAH and SWA interviewing F9 pilots for a first year job. Don't think it is possible??? You better do your research and check the financials. If you believe lives, upgrades, seat protection, or anything else matters over money, you are not living in the same world I am. It's all about money people, don't be stupid.

Bake

Originally Posted by solost

It is my opinion that what RAH has to offer frontier is a much greater deal in the long term. Frontier pilots will be able to keep their positions and most likely pay, with fences and protection from furlough because I believe they will be offered a more than fair integration at RAH.

From what has been discussed, I think any captains at F9 will end up at the top of the RAH seniority list due to the fact that no pilot at RAH could have reasonably had the same career expectations. If not the top top of the list at least a 1 to 1 or, 1 to 2 integration. As for all of the FO's, they could be in the same category as career expectations as the rest of the RAH captains. Perhaps about the same pay, etc... So after the the end of the F9 captains, the FO's could be integrated at 1 to 5 with the RAH captain list. That would put all of them at the top 50% of the RAH list. With that in mind they would also have first chance to bid any DEN vacancies on any aircraft. As for LYNX I don't know what would be fair. Perhaps their captains at the end of the RAH captain list, and FO the end of the RAH FO list with fences or some other protection.

Frontier as a brand still has a strong future with RAH. They are a strong pilot group and could really help make the industry better. Thinka about the possibilities here to develop a pilot list that starts at the regional FO level, and progresses to at least the narrow body. RAH is under contract negotitiations and will win a strong contract. It may take time, but it will happen, and they have a lot of bargaining chips to make it so, especially if the company is doing at risk flying and can't afford the possibility of a strike.

This potentially the moment that could change the airlines for the better not the worse. If F9 ends up with SWA they are just a footnote in history, end of story.

Also as for Southwest winning this bid, I do believe they are fighting an uphill battle. RAH is the largest secured creditor to the tune of nearly 50%, with that much of a vote in the matter. Don't forget that Airbus is also the second highest secured creditor. No way they want to take these planes back in this world wide down economy, they will want to keep them flying. I am not sure if the entire employee group will have a vote, but if they do they should really considere that there will be not jobs at SWA for the majority of them, we are not just talking about pilots here.

Either way I hope the best for F9 I have some good friends there and I hope they are happy with the outcome either way and their interest are also served.

Originally Posted by solost

It is my opinion that what RAH has to offer frontier is a much greater deal in the long term. Frontier pilots will be able to keep their positions and most likely pay, with fences and protection from furlough because I believe they will be offered a more than fair integration at RAH.

From what has been discussed, I think any captains at F9 will end up at the top of the RAH seniority list due to the fact that no pilot at RAH could have reasonably had the same career expectations. If not the top top of the list at least a 1 to 1 or, 1 to 2 integration. As for all of the FO's, they could be in the same category as career expectations as the rest of the RAH captains. Perhaps about the same pay, etc... So after the the end of the F9 captains, the FO's could be integrated at 1 to 5 with the RAH captain list. That would put all of them at the top 50% of the RAH list. With that in mind they would also have first chance to bid any DEN vacancies on any aircraft. As for LYNX I don't know what would be fair. Perhaps their captains at the end of the RAH captain list, and FO the end of the RAH FO list with fences or some other protection.

Frontier as a brand still has a strong future with RAH. They are a strong pilot group and could really help make the industry better. Thinka about the possibilities here to develop a pilot list that starts at the regional FO level, and progresses to at least the narrow body. RAH is under contract negotitiations and will win a strong contract. It may take time, but it will happen, and they have a lot of bargaining chips to make it so, especially if the company is doing at risk flying and can't afford the possibility of a strike.

This potentially the moment that could change the airlines for the better not the worse. If F9 ends up with SWA they are just a footnote in history, end of story.

Also as for Southwest winning this bid, I do believe they are fighting an uphill battle. RAH is the largest secured creditor to the tune of nearly 50%, with that much of a vote in the matter. Don't forget that Airbus is also the second highest secured creditor. No way they want to take these planes back in this world wide down economy, they will want to keep them flying. I am not sure if the entire employee group will have a vote, but if they do they should really considere that there will be not jobs at SWA for the majority of them, we are not just talking about pilots here.

Either way I hope the best for F9 I have some good friends there and I hope they are happy with the outcome either way and their interest are also served.