SWA - Frontier Senority List Integration
08-07-2009, 12:27 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
The largest creditor (almost half of the full amount) is Republic. Airbus, Bombardier (not Boeing) are going to be too tough votes, FAPA doesn't want a staple at SWA thats another vote. The law requires them to make a decision not only based on the $$ that they will receive but on the whole process that is best for the creditors and the estate. Airbus will undoubtedly want an all airbus carrier to stay in business and may be negotiating the next airbus sale with BB as we speak.
What do you think the company would ask the Judge to do if Republic announces a deal with Airbus contingent on winner the auction. Immediate growth, financial stability and competition stays alive in Denver.
This auction is not wholly about the Creditors its about Frontier as an estate.
What do you think the company would ask the Judge to do if Republic announces a deal with Airbus contingent on winner the auction. Immediate growth, financial stability and competition stays alive in Denver.
This auction is not wholly about the Creditors its about Frontier as an estate.
08-07-2009, 12:29 PM
#42
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 12
Your dates have me confused. So, on the 10th or 17th or sometime, the judge will determine if SWA or Republic wins the bid. Let's say he says, SWA you are the winner. Then SWA says, ok we will take over F9, planes pilots and everything, let's merge. SWAPA takes the position that they want all F9 pilots to go to the bottom of the list. F9 pilots say, no way, Bond-McCatskil, we want to go to court and have an arbitrator figure it out. What do you guys have to stop that from happening?
Even if (and thats a big if) you can stop the two operations from merging, what benefit would that give to the company?
Even if (and thats a big if) you can stop the two operations from merging, what benefit would that give to the company?
Of course GK could press on and close on the acquisition without SWAPA's blessing. Then if FAPA and SWAPA couldn't agree on something, the above laws would take affect.
But I'm wondering why GK has repeatedly gone on record stating no labor agreements- no buyout. Seems reckless to be so adament if he plans to go on with the deal anyway. The pilots made company history by rejecting the last TA. There were many that voted no based of their concerns about job security, code share, and the lance program (career advancement).
This potential buyout has the potential to worsen an already very tense situation at WN. If GK goes through with this without SWAPA, it would be a massive blow to mgt./ labor relations that would be very hard to repair. He could have just as easily left an out in his statements about required labor agreements.
Maybe SWA has a secret "plan b" if SWAPA kills the deal. Or maybe GK will press on without SWAPA support and be content to lie in the bed he made.
Or maybe SWAPA will give just enough (at the expense of their junior pilots) to broker a deal with FAPA.
Who knows?
08-07-2009, 01:18 PM
#43
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 13
First I NEVER said that F9 pilots should go over to SWA with their same seniority. I'm not stupid. No, that wouldn't be fair but I also don't think a staple to the bottom would be either since SWA REALLY wants Frontier and Denver for future growth. You seem to forget that. The company WANTS something Frontier has. They aren't doing this to save the pilot's jobs. That is why I think they should offer something a bit more than a staple at the bottom and that is JMO!!
How many of those 450 F9 apps do you think were submitted AFTER F9 went into bankruptcy? I'm guessing quite a few. SWA I think was one of the few airlines hiring and the pilots weren't sure what would happen to Frontier.
Can you please quote me where I said we are looking for a windfall? My, you are jumping to a lot of conclusions. The only thing I've repeated is that my biggest FEAR is the F9 pilots will get stapled to the bottom and THEN get FURLOUGHED! Are you actually READING my posts?
I don't speak for any F9 pilot. I don't know how they all feel. These are MY thoughts. Even my husband isn't 100% sure on how he feels about this. He doesn't read these or even the FAPA boards. He is just waiting to see what will happen.
How many of those 450 F9 apps do you think were submitted AFTER F9 went into bankruptcy? I'm guessing quite a few. SWA I think was one of the few airlines hiring and the pilots weren't sure what would happen to Frontier.
Can you please quote me where I said we are looking for a windfall? My, you are jumping to a lot of conclusions. The only thing I've repeated is that my biggest FEAR is the F9 pilots will get stapled to the bottom and THEN get FURLOUGHED! Are you actually READING my posts?
I don't speak for any F9 pilot. I don't know how they all feel. These are MY thoughts. Even my husband isn't 100% sure on how he feels about this. He doesn't read these or even the FAPA boards. He is just waiting to see what will happen.
Now that it is becoming a very real possibility, we are trying to think (in our opinion) what would be the most fair outcome for everyone involved. I know you said your biggest fear is having your husband stapled and then furloughed down the road. I have to admit that is also my biggest fear. F9 guys will be integrated and then original SWA guys, my husband included, will be furloughed- leaving some F9 guys that didn't apply, interview or any of the normal processes. I know quite a few F9 guys (from my original commuter airline) that have applied and/or interviewed at SWA, even before they went into bankruptcy.
I was reading on the SWA blog and I could not believe some of the attitudes many of the F9 employees have about SWA. I guess my second fear is these employees will bring this hostile outlook with them and it will affect the SWA culture. I love Frontier, don't get me wrong. I travel from Dallas to Denver at least once a month and I would choose to take F9 every time if it didn't cost me 2 roundtrip ZEDs. I'd get to fly out of DFW, DirectTV, no stops... The pilots are awesome- greeting passengers, helping with strollers, keeping us informed. I think the two cultures could actually meld very well together.
So, I guess in my opinion, I think the most fair way would be to staple the F9 guys with pay protection and hope SWA maintains their no-furlough history. They would keep their jobs, keep their pay and the SWA guys would welcome them aboard. But what do I know, I am just an ex ZW and WN F/A with a husband that also does not read these boards
08-07-2009, 02:31 PM
#45
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 43
There is no way for Frontier to end in an asset sale because Republic's bid was for 100% of the equity. Southwest must now also try to take 100% equity stake to out bid RAH.
08-07-2009, 08:17 PM
#46
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: 737FO
Posts: 30
There is a 3rd option no one is thinking about. SWA outbids RAH for the deal, SWAPA and FAPA don't come to an acceptable conclusion (I hope they do), SWA goes to SWAPA and cuts a deal to make an exception to the current contract. Now, SWA owns F9, runs it separately until a given date and then shuts it down while owning the certificate. Now, All f9 are out of a job with RAH and SWA interviewing F9 pilots for a first year job. Don't think it is possible??? You better do your research and check the financials. If you believe lives, upgrades, seat protection, or anything else matters over money, you are not living in the same world I am. It's all about money people, don't be stupid.
Bake
Bake
08-07-2009, 08:34 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 737 F/O
Posts: 500
The Bond-McCaskill law does not appear to establish any substantive right to employment. The Bond-McCaskill amendment does not require a carrier to hire the employees of another carrier, nor does it require a merger of the carriers in the event of a transaction....
08-08-2009, 12:22 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
What is fair then F9 guys? A 14 year F9 getting senority of 1994 with an $80000 raise, benies, qol and tremendous job security. What a lottery ticket. Pilotswife do you really think this would be fair? Not a chance. I really do hope we can give your husband stable employment. I am sure we will. Will it be different? You bet, but we need to all make it as enjoyable as we can. What about the 450 F9 apps that SWA has on file? Those where all pilots willing to go to the bottom with 1st year pay and probation. Why do you think that is?
Now I am all about keeping fellow pilots employed, but the F9's need to look at reality a little. I am all about fair, but I really need more facts before I could say staple or give an F9 pilot 14 years senority. Look at what Republic did to Midwest. You talk about SWA pilots wanting a windfall look in the mirror. The differences is one comapany is a little more stable then the other. If we were talking equal companies then sure relative senority, but we arent. Not even close. Believe me I know it could be us 10 years down the road.
I am pretty sure SWA will win the bid. It would be a shocker if they didnt. Republic will not have a vote due the fact they are a bidder.
Lets all just see what happens on the 10th. Then lets see what happens on the 11th-17th.
Patch nice post!
Now I am all about keeping fellow pilots employed, but the F9's need to look at reality a little. I am all about fair, but I really need more facts before I could say staple or give an F9 pilot 14 years senority. Look at what Republic did to Midwest. You talk about SWA pilots wanting a windfall look in the mirror. The differences is one comapany is a little more stable then the other. If we were talking equal companies then sure relative senority, but we arent. Not even close. Believe me I know it could be us 10 years down the road.
I am pretty sure SWA will win the bid. It would be a shocker if they didnt. Republic will not have a vote due the fact they are a bidder.
Lets all just see what happens on the 10th. Then lets see what happens on the 11th-17th.
Patch nice post!
08-08-2009, 04:59 AM
#49
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
What about the F9 pilots be put into the seniority list. I'm saying "put" because it is not completely needed to be defined for this question. Then they furlough SWA guys. What do you think about that? Do you think that is fair to those that have already been employed at SWA?
08-08-2009, 07:18 AM
#50
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Position: Airbus Captain
Posts: 7
There is a 3rd option no one is thinking about. SWA outbids RAH for the deal, SWAPA and FAPA don't come to an acceptable conclusion (I hope they do), SWA goes to SWAPA and cuts a deal to make an exception to the current contract. Now, SWA owns F9, runs it separately until a given date and then shuts it down while owning the certificate. Now, All f9 are out of a job with RAH and SWA interviewing F9 pilots for a first year job. Don't think it is possible??? You better do your research and check the financials. If you believe lives, upgrades, seat protection, or anything else matters over money, you are not living in the same world I am. It's all about money people, don't be stupid.
Bake
Bake
After operating the Airbus fleet for a couple of years, GK recognizes the efficiency of the Airbus fleet and decides to keep it as is. Growth remains stagnant at SWA while flying is transferred to the Airbus fleet as the pilots make less money at F9.
Last edited by ZooCrew; 08-08-2009 at 07:53 AM.
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