SWA - Frontier Senority List Integration
08-06-2009, 06:14 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
SWA Guys,
So, let say that SWA has the opportunity to buy or merge with AMR, DAL, UAL or whoever. If you don't agree to the seniority list integration beforehand, the deal is dead?
If either side of the NWA/DAL merger had that power, it would not have gotten done.
So, let say that SWA has the opportunity to buy or merge with AMR, DAL, UAL or whoever. If you don't agree to the seniority list integration beforehand, the deal is dead?
If either side of the NWA/DAL merger had that power, it would not have gotten done.
08-06-2009, 06:33 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 56
I haven't seen the raw numbers, but I've been informed (mostly through union news) that we are NOT winning in terms of the all mighty dollar in Denver at this time. That being said, we ARE winning in the broad spectrum in Denver because of the opportunity bestowed upon us to now acquire F9 and take the "players" from 3 to 2 (UAL and SWA). I really think SWA will counter anything Republic has to offer. Denver is too huge for us. Being a solely domestic carrier with a hub near the center of the country is huge. Make no mistake, SWA wants to rule Denver.
Would I support some of the Capts staying Capts? I personally would if it meant the deal would fall through otherwise. Denver is too important. However, I do think it would still get voted down by the masses. I would like our union to come to the table with the suggestion that I mentioned earlier (staple, pay protection (FO pay raise)/domicile protection). Personally, if the F9 union turned it down, I think we counter with a carrot for their senior Capts. Don't ask me the percentage because I really don't know. As a SWA guy, my family and my company come before F9's -- not being rude... just stating how I feel. On the flip side, I believe F9 should fight for everything they feel they deserve, weigh all the options, and then vote for what THEY feel is in THEIR best interest. My guess is that in the end when push comes to shove, they'll vote to come aboard SWA at the bottom of the list or face the unfortunate low paying future of working for Republic. It's a sad time for F9, but again, I have to look out for what's best for my family and be thankful that this time around, I'm on the winning side. Make no mistake, I don't drink the SWA koolaid. I'm well aware that SWA could be the one in troubled times down the road. Who knows. The Bottom line is that I expect each side to strive for themselves and then vote with a clear understanding of the consequences if the result doesn't go their way.
On as side note, I feel real bad for our poolies right now. In my opinion, the F9 guys should go above them. I'm sure there are other guys I work with that feel strongly the other way. I've got 4 buddies in the pool right now. I'm glad they have military jobs to fall back onto in the mean time.
Patch
Would I support some of the Capts staying Capts? I personally would if it meant the deal would fall through otherwise. Denver is too important. However, I do think it would still get voted down by the masses. I would like our union to come to the table with the suggestion that I mentioned earlier (staple, pay protection (FO pay raise)/domicile protection). Personally, if the F9 union turned it down, I think we counter with a carrot for their senior Capts. Don't ask me the percentage because I really don't know. As a SWA guy, my family and my company come before F9's -- not being rude... just stating how I feel. On the flip side, I believe F9 should fight for everything they feel they deserve, weigh all the options, and then vote for what THEY feel is in THEIR best interest. My guess is that in the end when push comes to shove, they'll vote to come aboard SWA at the bottom of the list or face the unfortunate low paying future of working for Republic. It's a sad time for F9, but again, I have to look out for what's best for my family and be thankful that this time around, I'm on the winning side. Make no mistake, I don't drink the SWA koolaid. I'm well aware that SWA could be the one in troubled times down the road. Who knows. The Bottom line is that I expect each side to strive for themselves and then vote with a clear understanding of the consequences if the result doesn't go their way.
On as side note, I feel real bad for our poolies right now. In my opinion, the F9 guys should go above them. I'm sure there are other guys I work with that feel strongly the other way. I've got 4 buddies in the pool right now. I'm glad they have military jobs to fall back onto in the mean time.
Patch
Personally, I'd rather my husband (and our family) take our chances at Republic and save a wonderful airline and many jobs (not just pilots) than have SWA win this deal. I just have a bad feeling that they only want a staple and it is "take it or leave it" and I sure hope FAPA leaves it.
F9 is just looking out for their family too.
08-06-2009, 06:37 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: B-737 FO
Posts: 112
From what I've heard, that is the case. The company needs us on board for the deal to work. I just hope that if Frontier turns down the staple that SWAPA will most likely offer, we as a pilot group don't say <deleted>. We need to think about the big picture and how having only UAL to compete with will enhance our opportunities for further growth. The last thing I want is SWA continuing to compete with UAL and a Frontier ran by Republic. We're not making money in Denver now. We certainly won't make more if Republic is running Frontier in Denver.
As I said in a previous post, I've got to look out for my family and my company. It's in our best interest to make this deal go through. SWAPA needs to do a good job with getting the information out on how important this deal is and that if the likely staple offer gets voted down by F9, that we don't automatically walk. We as a pilot group have to weigh this whole situation on our company's future stength and growth potential, not on the emotional side of "We're the buyer, they're bankrupt, staple 'em."
I always say that I make my decision for my family and my company. Unfortunately, a lot of hot heads only think about themselves. Without the company, you're flying the unemployment line.
Patch
Last edited by IC ALL; 08-06-2009 at 07:44 PM. Reason: profanity removed
08-06-2009, 06:41 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Do you think this is what SWA is counting on so they will get F9, Denver and all the F9 pilots stapled at the bottom? I wouldn't count on it. I think a big fear is that if they get stapled at the bottom they will get furloughed.
Personally, I'd rather my husband (and our family) take our chances at Republic and save a wonderful airline and many jobs (not just pilots) than have SWA win this deal. I just have a bad feeling that they only want a staple and it is "take it or leave it" and I sure hope FAPA leaves it.
F9 is just looking out for their family too.
Personally, I'd rather my husband (and our family) take our chances at Republic and save a wonderful airline and many jobs (not just pilots) than have SWA win this deal. I just have a bad feeling that they only want a staple and it is "take it or leave it" and I sure hope FAPA leaves it.
F9 is just looking out for their family too.
That whole attitude of, "anyone would be lucky to be on the bottom of the SWA list," seems to be a bit pretentious.
08-06-2009, 06:46 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
From what I've heard, that is the case. The company needs us on board for the deal to work. I just hope that if Frontier turns down the staple that SWAPA will most likely offer, we as a pilot group don't say F-off. We need to think about the big picture and how having only UAL to compete with will enhance our opportunities for further growth. The last thing I want is SWA continuing to compete with UAL and a Frontier ran by Republic. We're not making money in Denver now. We certainly won't make more if Republic is running Frontier in Denver.
As I said in a previous post, I've got to look out for my family and my company. It's in our best interest to make this deal go through. SWAPA needs to do a good job with getting the information out on how important this deal is and that if the likely staple offer gets voted down by F9, that we don't automatically walk. We as a pilot group have to weigh this whole situation on our company's future stength and growth potential, not on the emotional side of "We're the buyer, they're bankrupt, staple 'em."
I always say that I make my decision for my family and my company. Unfortunately, a lot of hot heads only think about themselves. Without the company, you're flying the unemployment line.
Patch
As I said in a previous post, I've got to look out for my family and my company. It's in our best interest to make this deal go through. SWAPA needs to do a good job with getting the information out on how important this deal is and that if the likely staple offer gets voted down by F9, that we don't automatically walk. We as a pilot group have to weigh this whole situation on our company's future stength and growth potential, not on the emotional side of "We're the buyer, they're bankrupt, staple 'em."
I always say that I make my decision for my family and my company. Unfortunately, a lot of hot heads only think about themselves. Without the company, you're flying the unemployment line.
Patch
08-06-2009, 06:59 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: B-737 / FO
Posts: 246
Thanks Patch for your reply.
"there are winners and losers in business" as you stated.
So is SWA winning or losing in Denver? What facts support your position?
Regardless of what "the company does," would YOU prefer having the entire A councourse and subsequent pricing power created by not having 3 airlines trying to take each other out which might result in greater job security if it meant that F9 Captains remained CA's after the transition to SWA Boeing?
Or would you prefer SWA pass on the deal?
"there are winners and losers in business" as you stated.
So is SWA winning or losing in Denver? What facts support your position?
Regardless of what "the company does," would YOU prefer having the entire A councourse and subsequent pricing power created by not having 3 airlines trying to take each other out which might result in greater job security if it meant that F9 Captains remained CA's after the transition to SWA Boeing?
Or would you prefer SWA pass on the deal?
08-06-2009, 07:04 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 127
I haven't seen the raw numbers, but I've been informed (mostly through union news) that we are NOT winning in terms of the all mighty dollar in Denver at this time. That being said, we ARE winning in the broad spectrum in Denver because of the opportunity bestowed upon us to now acquire F9 and take the "players" from 3 to 2 (UAL and SWA). I really think SWA will counter anything Republic has to offer. Denver is too huge for us. Being a solely domestic carrier with a hub near the center of the country is huge. Make no mistake, SWA wants to rule Denver.
Would I support some of the Capts staying Capts? I personally would if it meant the deal would fall through otherwise. Denver is too important. However, I do think it would still get voted down by the masses. I would like our union to come to the table with the suggestion that I mentioned earlier (staple, pay protection (FO pay raise)/domicile protection). Personally, if the F9 union turned it down, I think we counter with a carrot for their senior Capts. Don't ask me the percentage because I really don't know. As a SWA guy, my family and my company come before F9's -- not being rude... just stating how I feel. On the flip side, I believe F9 should fight for everything they feel they deserve, weigh all the options, and then vote for what THEY feel is in THEIR best interest. My guess is that in the end when push comes to shove, they'll vote to come aboard SWA at the bottom of the list or face the unfortunate low paying future of working for Republic. It's a sad time for F9, but again, I have to look out for what's best for my family and be thankful that this time around, I'm on the winning side. Make no mistake, I don't drink the SWA koolaid. I'm well aware that SWA could be the one in troubled times down the road. Who knows. The Bottom line is that I expect each side to strive for themselves and then vote with a clear understanding of the consequences if the result doesn't go their way.
On as side note, I feel real bad for our poolies right now. In my opinion, the F9 guys should go above them. I'm sure there are other guys I work with that feel strongly the other way. I've got 4 buddies in the pool right now. I'm glad they have military jobs to fall back onto in the mean time.
Patch
Would I support some of the Capts staying Capts? I personally would if it meant the deal would fall through otherwise. Denver is too important. However, I do think it would still get voted down by the masses. I would like our union to come to the table with the suggestion that I mentioned earlier (staple, pay protection (FO pay raise)/domicile protection). Personally, if the F9 union turned it down, I think we counter with a carrot for their senior Capts. Don't ask me the percentage because I really don't know. As a SWA guy, my family and my company come before F9's -- not being rude... just stating how I feel. On the flip side, I believe F9 should fight for everything they feel they deserve, weigh all the options, and then vote for what THEY feel is in THEIR best interest. My guess is that in the end when push comes to shove, they'll vote to come aboard SWA at the bottom of the list or face the unfortunate low paying future of working for Republic. It's a sad time for F9, but again, I have to look out for what's best for my family and be thankful that this time around, I'm on the winning side. Make no mistake, I don't drink the SWA koolaid. I'm well aware that SWA could be the one in troubled times down the road. Who knows. The Bottom line is that I expect each side to strive for themselves and then vote with a clear understanding of the consequences if the result doesn't go their way.
On as side note, I feel real bad for our poolies right now. In my opinion, the F9 guys should go above them. I'm sure there are other guys I work with that feel strongly the other way. I've got 4 buddies in the pool right now. I'm glad they have military jobs to fall back onto in the mean time.
Patch
I think what you don't understand is that this deal has nothing to do with what you think. Sorry. I'm not trying to be rude. But, your whole post sounds pretentious with the deal revolving around what SWA pilot think should happen. You are still just a pawn in this big game. ( yes even though you are a SWA pilot). So IF you purchase F9. Then you can talk about stapling them. Which, if it were anyone else talking about stapling you would be shunned, but I guess its ok to staple cause your SWA! Bow down F9. Your being bought by SW so instead of a fair integration and feneing you get crapped on. Have fun with that.
Oh wait. But you now work for SW and have a 20 year upgrade to look forward too.
08-06-2009, 07:05 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: B-737 / FO
Posts: 246
Do you think this is what SWA is counting on so they will get F9, Denver and all the F9 pilots stapled at the bottom? I wouldn't count on it. I think a big fear is that if they get stapled at the bottom they will get furloughed.
Personally, I'd rather my husband (and our family) take our chances at Republic and save a wonderful airline and many jobs (not just pilots) than have SWA win this deal. I just have a bad feeling that they only want a staple and it is "take it or leave it" and I sure hope FAPA leaves it.
F9 is just looking out for their family too.
Personally, I'd rather my husband (and our family) take our chances at Republic and save a wonderful airline and many jobs (not just pilots) than have SWA win this deal. I just have a bad feeling that they only want a staple and it is "take it or leave it" and I sure hope FAPA leaves it.
F9 is just looking out for their family too.
08-06-2009, 07:06 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: B-737 / FO
Posts: 246
I think what you don't understand is that this deal has nothing to do with what you think. Sorry. I'm not trying to be rude. But, your whole post sounds pretentious with the deal revolving around what SWA pilot think should happen. You are still just a pawn in this big game. ( yes even though you are a SWA pilot). So IF you purchase F9. Then you can talk about stapling them. Which, if it were anyone else talking about stapling you would be shunned, but I guess its ok to staple cause your SWA! Bow down F9. Your being bought by SW so instead of a fair integration and feneing you get crapped on. Have fun with that.
Oh wait. But you now work for SW and have a 20 year upgrade to look forward too.
Oh wait. But you now work for SW and have a 20 year upgrade to look forward too.
Look at what happened to Midwest? If you're going to get crapped on I would much rather get crapped on making good money at SWA.
And what's the upgrade time at Frontier today?
08-06-2009, 07:16 PM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 43
I think what you don't understand is that this deal has nothing to do with what you think. Sorry. I'm not trying to be rude. But, your whole post sounds pretentious with the deal revolving around what SWA pilot think should happen. You are still just a pawn in this big game. ( yes even though you are a SWA pilot). So IF you purchase F9. Then you can talk about stapling them. Which, if it were anyone else talking about stapling you would be shunned, but I guess its ok to staple cause your SWA! Bow down F9. Your being bought by SW so instead of a fair integration and feneing you get crapped on. Have fun with that.
Oh wait. But you now work for SW and have a 20 year upgrade to look forward too.
Oh wait. But you now work for SW and have a 20 year upgrade to look forward too.
F9 is in a situation where they can ask the judge to go for the Republic deal because it keeps all the jobs in Denver even if the bid is below SWA's. Southwest could then counter by saying that they are going to keep f9 as a separate entity but keep all the jobs. (everyone knows this isn't what they really want)
The judge will most likely look to the creditors for their approval of a deal. The largest creditor is Republic, Airbus is also a creditor you can be sure that they are not in favor of SWA even though they are supposed to be fair and equitable to the estate and all creditors not just themselves...the equity interests are the company, bond holders, stock holders (which means nothing), and the employees to some extent.
SWA is fighting an uphill battle. The only way I see SWA getting the deal done is by paying a whole bunch more than Republic wants to go but if Republic has big plans this could get ugly!
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