SWA - Frontier Senority List Integration
#111
Is it true that SWA intends to 'park' 11 of the 51 F9 planes right away? Then phase out the other Airbuses as they 'integrate' F9 into the company. If so, it seems to me that they are buying a company for the sole purpose of killing their competition. If 20% of the fleet gets parked, then the F9 dudes are gonna get the axe. As a SWA pilot how to you view the 'replacement' of the F9 Airbuses with 737's that SWA ALREADY had on order? You're already getting those jets right? Why not fly them yourselves?
Sure looks like SWA is buying the competition with the intention of throwing them in the dumpster. It's actually pretty surprising that SWA can't compete in a 3 way competition in Denver...especially since UAL pretty much sucks when it comes to competing.
Sure looks like SWA is buying the competition with the intention of throwing them in the dumpster. It's actually pretty surprising that SWA can't compete in a 3 way competition in Denver...especially since UAL pretty much sucks when it comes to competing.
As I've been saying all along this is an acquisition, not a merger.
I just hope I'm not on the wrong end of one of these deals someday....
#113
Well, I guess the only guarantee here is just like every other merger in the history of Aviation......
If RAH wins, the pilot group will be accused of stealing jobs,
If SWA wins, their pilot group will be accused of stealing jobs......
Whoever wins instantly becomes the badguy....the story of aviation mergers for decades...sad but true, and the infighting goes on and on and on and on........
If RAH wins, the pilot group will be accused of stealing jobs,
If SWA wins, their pilot group will be accused of stealing jobs......
Whoever wins instantly becomes the badguy....the story of aviation mergers for decades...sad but true, and the infighting goes on and on and on and on........
#114
Ygbsm
They are gone, as are thousands of AA employees, because of furloughs. Let's not get into this one sided argument once again. If SWA decides to furlough after the F9 acquisition, guess what, all F9 pilots will be gone as well. Stop it with your drama trauma. We integrated almost half of your pilots, you sued, and a judge ruled it was fair. End of story.
Answer my question, why is it that F9 pilots are perfectly OK with a 100% staple while our 53% staple, 47% integration was such a sore spot? Would you TWA pilots have taken a 100% staple at SWA?
And finally, had no furloughs happened at AA after the buyout, would you have been OK with our integration?
Answer my question, why is it that F9 pilots are perfectly OK with a 100% staple while our 53% staple, 47% integration was such a sore spot? Would you TWA pilots have taken a 100% staple at SWA?
And finally, had no furloughs happened at AA after the buyout, would you have been OK with our integration?
I doubt seriously all F9 pilots are okay with 100% staple. I can't speak to that. Ask them, not me. I feel their pain and frustration if SWA buys them, and I see the rhetoric already, so similar to '01 it scares me.
As far as the comment 'we integrated almost half your pilots', that isn't true. AA stapled 1300 TWA pilots, including 200 13-yr seniority CAs to the bottom, below not only new-hire, probationary F/Es, but 386 pilots who weren't interviewed, hadn't been hired, weren't trained and had no seniority number when AA announced they would buy TWA. Out of the 1100 that were ratioed in the AA list, starting at #2500 to the bottom, over half were FERB'ed (retired) and some of those (all 13-yr CAs or higher) were even furloughed while you kept your job.
Your question about '53% staple/47% integration' being a sore spot can be explained like this: AA bought TWA, and TWA was a major Air Carrier that had 200 aircraft and had a 76-yr history. You're damn right we had a problem with the wholesale destruction of the TWA seniority list (out of 2400 pilots when acquired only 750 are left flying at AA). Now, with SWA (a large major air carrier with over 550 jets) buying an LCC with 51 jets and only a 15-yr pedigree, the circumstances are different.
Would TWA pilots have taken a 100% staple at SWA? NO WAY!
Lastly, your question about furloughs is interesting. If I had kept my same job (B-767-I middle seniority F/O in STL) and had a 25% raise with no QOL changes, maybe I would have been okay, even if I hadn't upgraded until age 55. But that isn't what happened---I've been on the street almost seven years, and no recalls or upgrades in sight. IOW, career at 'integrated' AA over.
I know exactly what F9 pilots are feeling right now; I've been there. All I hope is that Bond/McCaskill applies and the seniority integration is arbitrated. THAT would be fair; a 100% staple would not. But, that's for an arbitrator to decide.
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
SW is a stronger company with a better balance sheet. F9 brings important assets that SW is willing to pay for. It doesn't matter who buys whom, that is not a factor, the two lists are coming together. SW has to adapt their airline to the new reality, they will become more like Frontier in the future, this is an important first step for them. Each side brings equities to the merger.
Keep it simple, make any fences short, don't fight each other to the death, it is not worth it. Each side should remember that in the end you will be one group, protect each other's interests and it will serve you in the future.
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: A320
Posts: 406
How come some of you guys here fail to understand that this is not a merger? SWA is buying a bankrupt airline and it will, wiht the blessing of SWAPA,operate it as a separate airline while it downsizes it and gets rid of every emplyoee there. get it? there is no merger. If SWA decides to offer jobs to the Frontier guys the SWA unions, specially the piltos one due to their scope, need to agree to the offer, and it will be nothing more than a staple and you hould be thankfull for that.
no integraton, no arbitration, this is not a merger...get it?
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,918
As far as the comment 'we integrated almost half your pilots', that isn't true. AA stapled 1300 TWA pilots, including 200 13-yr seniority CAs to the bottom, below not only new-hire, probationary F/Es, but 386 pilots who weren't interviewed, hadn't been hired, weren't trained and had no seniority number when AA announced they would buy TWA. Out of the 1100 that were ratioed in the AA list, starting at #2500 to the bottom, over half were FERB'ed (retired) and some of those (all 13-yr CAs or higher) were even furloughed while you kept your job.
Good luck to F9/SWA.
73
#119
Thanks for the response, ER. We're not debating the merit of AA pilots keeping their jobs while TWA pilots hit the streets, that was expected since AA was the buyer and TWA did not have any leverage whatsoever, thanks to the ALPA sellout - and the APA looking out for its own. What we ARE debating are the percentages of the integration. In the end, the facts speak for themselves - we DID integrate almost half of your seniority list. Approximately 1300 pilots were stapled, and 1100 were integrated at 8:1, which represents about a 53%-47% split. You tend to make it sound like we stapled the majority, which is not the case.
Good luck to F9/SWA.
73
Good luck to F9/SWA.
73
Are you sure about that last statement?
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,034
How come some of you guys here fail to understand that this is not a merger? SWA is buying a bankrupt airline and it will, wiht the blessing of SWAPA,operate it as a separate airline while it downsizes it and gets rid of every emplyoee there. get it? there is no merger. If SWA decides to offer jobs to the Frontier guys the SWA unions, specially the piltos one due to their scope, need to agree to the offer, and it will be nothing more than a staple and you hould be thankfull for that.
no integraton, no arbitration, this is not a merger...get it?
no integraton, no arbitration, this is not a merger...get it?
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