SWA - Frontier Senority List Integration
08-10-2009, 05:28 PM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: CEO
Posts: 152
If you were a CA at TWA you kept your CA seat. Only a few 717 CA's with less than 8 yrs at TWA did not keep reinstatement rights to the CA seat at AA.
40% of TWA CA's all kept their CA seat are still in it, or retired from it.
All TWA CA;s recieved a large pay raise, great retirement benefits.
I know at least 800+ ex TWA CA's that could have bid out of St louis into the AA system and still held CA in any AA base.
There are only about 400 TWA CA's left.
TWA CA's were merged into the AA seniority list starting at 2000 ish at the time good enough for 767 CA at any AA base in 2001.
935 TWA CA's kept their seats.
For the TWA Fo's if you were hired on after 1986 you were ratio'd into the AA pilot list at 8 to 1 until they ran out of AA pilots. The rest were then called a staple.
Yes, it sucks that AA put all the TWA pilots into one base (St louis).
People use the term staple so easily and generally incorrectly.
Was TWA stapled? If you ask me, No.
I saw 935 TWA CA's come onto the list senior to me.
7576FO
40% of TWA CA's all kept their CA seat are still in it, or retired from it.
All TWA CA;s recieved a large pay raise, great retirement benefits.
I know at least 800+ ex TWA CA's that could have bid out of St louis into the AA system and still held CA in any AA base.
There are only about 400 TWA CA's left.
TWA CA's were merged into the AA seniority list starting at 2000 ish at the time good enough for 767 CA at any AA base in 2001.
935 TWA CA's kept their seats.
For the TWA Fo's if you were hired on after 1986 you were ratio'd into the AA pilot list at 8 to 1 until they ran out of AA pilots. The rest were then called a staple.
Yes, it sucks that AA put all the TWA pilots into one base (St louis).
People use the term staple so easily and generally incorrectly.
Was TWA stapled? If you ask me, No.
I saw 935 TWA CA's come onto the list senior to me.
7576FO
08-10-2009, 05:34 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: CEO
Posts: 152
This is on target. We don't have to give anything........but we will. The F9 guys will get ALL we have...........pay, 401k, profit sharing, Oak reserve, among many other things. Of course there will be no requirement of getting the type. This alone runs about 10K or so, not to mention 2 weeks of being away from work. That is what we give from the fruits of 6000 current SWA pilots, and many others that have aren't still on property. You come, and we give you what we have.........also, we buy all the alcohol the first year............ALL the beer!
08-10-2009, 05:43 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: CEO
Posts: 152
Yes Really. We do have different perspectives.
I'm not here to argue. My whole point is other pilots tend to think all of TWA was completely stapled to the bottom of AA's list. That isn't true.
I stand by everything I wrote. AA parked the 717 fleet. I do not know why those few CA's did not receive reinstatement rights to the S80.
If I was a TWA CA hired in the 1960's and went to 2,000ish on the AA list, yes, i'd be offended. But that is not a staple!
All I know is, me an AA pilot working for AA for a long time when TWA happened and I went below 935 TWA CA's that ALL kept their seats, none of the TWA CA's above me were furloughed or ever had to fly FO.
Yes, it sucks that they chose to stay in STL, they all could have bid out and flown junior CA in almost any other base. Many could have been line holding 767 CA's in any AA base.
7576
I'm not here to argue. My whole point is other pilots tend to think all of TWA was completely stapled to the bottom of AA's list. That isn't true.
I stand by everything I wrote. AA parked the 717 fleet. I do not know why those few CA's did not receive reinstatement rights to the S80.
If I was a TWA CA hired in the 1960's and went to 2,000ish on the AA list, yes, i'd be offended. But that is not a staple!
All I know is, me an AA pilot working for AA for a long time when TWA happened and I went below 935 TWA CA's that ALL kept their seats, none of the TWA CA's above me were furloughed or ever had to fly FO.
Yes, it sucks that they chose to stay in STL, they all could have bid out and flown junior CA in almost any other base. Many could have been line holding 767 CA's in any AA base.
7576
Now, we have gone through some boom times since, and in all probability, those employees would have found work with other companies, BUT they then would have started out anew, on the bottom of some other carrier seniority list. And they could have experienced another wrenching failure, another merger, etc. In all, maybe merger with AA was the lesser of the possible evils.
08-10-2009, 05:53 PM
#94
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 43
"From what has been discussed, I think any captains at F9 will end up at the top of the RAH seniority list due to the fact that no pilot at RAH could have reasonably had the same career expectations...."
This is perhaps the most absurdly ridiculous statement I have ever seen written on APF. Just exactly what the hell does "having the same career expectations" have to do with the issues revolving around the integration of a pilot seniority list?
This is perhaps the most absurdly ridiculous statement I have ever seen written on APF. Just exactly what the hell does "having the same career expectations" have to do with the issues revolving around the integration of a pilot seniority list?
He put about 1,600 US Airways pilots on furlough at the time of the merger at the bottom, reasoning that they didn't have career expectations at the time given US Airways' dire financial straits.
08-11-2009, 03:21 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Agree 100 percent with Patch.
First, I'm not a SWA pilot, but have been through this before, and more than once, and make no mistake about it, there is no logic, reason or precedent for the pilot list of a failed airline dictating to the pilots and management of a successful acquiring carrier, that they have the seniority list integration, "just so" and their way.
You are not going to see a formulaic integration in a SWA-F9 merger, I'm betting. And why would there be? Frontier seniority has no value at Southwest. Frontier pilots were not hired at Southwest, have not contributed to the success of Southwest in any way, or to any degree. If rewarding seniority has any basis at all, it is at a particular carrier, not ANY carrier. In other, words, there is a reason why you do not carry seniority from company to company.
Need historical perspective on how it works? Take a look at the AA-Reno Air merger.
Enjoy.
First, I'm not a SWA pilot, but have been through this before, and more than once, and make no mistake about it, there is no logic, reason or precedent for the pilot list of a failed airline dictating to the pilots and management of a successful acquiring carrier, that they have the seniority list integration, "just so" and their way.
You are not going to see a formulaic integration in a SWA-F9 merger, I'm betting. And why would there be? Frontier seniority has no value at Southwest. Frontier pilots were not hired at Southwest, have not contributed to the success of Southwest in any way, or to any degree. If rewarding seniority has any basis at all, it is at a particular carrier, not ANY carrier. In other, words, there is a reason why you do not carry seniority from company to company.
Need historical perspective on how it works? Take a look at the AA-Reno Air merger.
Enjoy.
08-11-2009, 03:38 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
This is on target. We don't have to give anything........but we will. The F9 guys will get ALL we have...........pay, 401k, profit sharing, Oak reserve, among many other things. Of course there will be no requirement of getting the type. This alone runs about 10K or so, not to mention 2 weeks of being away from work. That is what we give from the fruits of 6000 current SWA pilots, and many others that have aren't still on property. You come, and we give you what we have.........also, we buy all the alcohol the first year............ALL the beer!
By the way, you sound upset that Frontier pilots wouldn't have to buy a type or take those 2 weeks off of work. Maybe you should realize that pay for training is something that should be gotten rid of.
08-11-2009, 04:03 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 CA MIA
Posts: 1,042
I was just making a point about "Staple" I had been at American several years 767FO when TWA was bought. I was not close to being CA at AA.
The Morris Air pilots were stapled to the bottom of SWA list, but because SWA had growth and lots of movement many of the former Morris Air pilots were back in the CA seat in 4 to 5 years. That is what i heard.
In 1998 AA bought Reno Air. All of the pilots went to the bottom of the AA sen list. That too is a staple. All Reno Air CA's were removed from their CA seats. Former Reno Air CA's might upgrade to CA at American in the year 2015.
TWA 40% of the TWA CA's are senior to me.
My only purpose is provide info that TWA was not stapled. Supp CC was created to keep TWA CA's in their seats. But the senior TWA CA's can bid out of STL even the jr pilots and fly their seniority # anywhere in the AA system. But a Senior TWA CA cannot fly 777 FO unitl some native FO real jr on the list can be a CA. There are also rigs in Supp CC to provide for flying for the pilots based in STL.
I don't have a problem with any of that. I don't have a problem with TWA or it's pilots.
Like I said, I am only contesting the internet legend that follows the claim "TWA was stapled" which for some they may feel that way.
7576
08-11-2009, 05:33 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,918
Interesting how TWA pilots call their integration an "un-integration" with a 53% staple/47% integration....and Frontier pilots are facing a 100% staple but yet are not upset? Can someone please enlighten me as to what I'm missing here?
08-11-2009, 07:44 AM
#100
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Frontier seniority has no value at Southwest. Frontier pilots were not hired at Southwest, have not contributed to the success of Southwest in any way, or to any degree. If rewarding seniority has any basis at all, it is at a particular carrier, not ANY carrier. In other, words, there is a reason why you do not carry seniority from company to company.
That is the most condescending, arrogant statement I have ever read on these forums. You should be ashamed of it.
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