ULCC Hits New Low
10-05-2024, 05:11 PM
#61
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Joined APC: Dec 2023
Posts: 196
The "ulcc model" didn't get spirit to this point, debt killed them. Spirit borrowed $2 billion to survive covid, F9 did not. I am not touting F9's business model, I am just saying spirit went bananas on borrowing money and like a long list of dozens of other airlines over the past several decades it came back to end them. You might be surprised to see who has balance sheet nearly as bad (in some cases worse) than Spirit. I think there is another debt driven merger/acquisition in the works outside of a potential F9-CH11NK.
filler
10-06-2024, 02:31 AM
#62
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,249
The "ulcc model" didn't get spirit to this point, debt killed them. Spirit borrowed $2 billion to survive covid, F9 did not. I am not touting F9's business model, I am just saying spirit went bananas on borrowing money and like a long list of dozens of other airlines over the past several decades it came back to end them. You might be surprised to see who has balance sheet nearly as bad (in some cases worse) than Spirit. I think there is another debt driven merger/acquisition in the works outside of a potential F9-CH11NK.
debt isn't the bigger issue.... having the planes (revenue generators) down is what killed them. Debt is fine if the money is coming in. AA has a higher debt ratio than Spirit, it just has the revenue streams to support it.. for now.
10-06-2024, 06:23 AM
#63
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Joined APC: Apr 2021
Posts: 1,311
in addition to that, Spirit had over 60 planes down for an extended period for geared engine issues.....
debt isn't the bigger issue.... having the planes (revenue generators) down is what killed them. Debt is fine if the money is coming in. AA has a higher debt ratio than Spirit, it just has the revenue streams to support it.. for now.
debt isn't the bigger issue.... having the planes (revenue generators) down is what killed them. Debt is fine if the money is coming in. AA has a higher debt ratio than Spirit, it just has the revenue streams to support it.. for now.
10-06-2024, 06:33 AM
#64
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Joined APC: Apr 2023
Posts: 238
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
10-06-2024, 08:59 AM
#65
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Joined APC: Apr 2021
Posts: 1,311
Bigger how? By 12 airplanes? Combined Revenues? Operating Profit?
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
The current order book would have a possible combined size of:
2024-374
2025-397
2026-419
2027-446?
2028-464?
2029-483?
2030-503?
Question marks are at the end of 2027 and on because Spirit hasn’t published their order book past then.
10-06-2024, 09:01 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,477
Bigger how? By 12 airplanes? Combined Revenues? Operating Profit?
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
10-06-2024, 12:09 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,341
1. debt does not take down companies, bad business decisions do.
unserviced debt, sure.
debt, no
if they took on debt that they couldn't service, thats on them.
Wall Street may ask/will ask, does the ULCC business model provide the ability to service their debt. Apparently, for Spirit, it does not.
2. "we have no debt"
See: https://companiesmarketcap.com/front...es/total-debt/
unserviced debt, sure.
debt, no
if they took on debt that they couldn't service, thats on them.
Wall Street may ask/will ask, does the ULCC business model provide the ability to service their debt. Apparently, for Spirit, it does not.
2. "we have no debt"
See: https://companiesmarketcap.com/front...es/total-debt/
10-06-2024, 01:31 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 645
1. debt does not take down companies, bad business decisions do.
unserviced debt, sure.
debt, no
if they took on debt that they couldn't service, thats on them.
Wall Street may ask/will ask, does the ULCC business model provide the ability to service their debt. Apparently, for Spirit, it does not.
2. "we have no debt"
See: https://companiesmarketcap.com/frontier-airlines/total-debt/
unserviced debt, sure.
debt, no
if they took on debt that they couldn't service, thats on them.
Wall Street may ask/will ask, does the ULCC business model provide the ability to service their debt. Apparently, for Spirit, it does not.
2. "we have no debt"
See: https://companiesmarketcap.com/frontier-airlines/total-debt/
10-06-2024, 02:59 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 492
Bigger how? By 12 airplanes? Combined Revenues? Operating Profit?
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
Alaska has 239 planes and with the Hawaiian merger that added 69 (yes, I know, they are continuing to operate as 2 companies under one corporate umbrella) = 338. The combined company(s) reach Pacific and Asia destinations and Alaksa flights throughout the US seamlessley connect with AA flights through their OneWorld alliance. I suspect Hawaiian will either become part of OW, or maybe they will just have some codeshares on HA metal flying on AS flight numbers to enable OneWorld synergies.
Spirit has 198 and Frontier has 152 = 350 planes and limited by the range of the Airbus A3xx fleet.
I don't think we can use number of planes to measure who's bigger in this comparison. And in a merger who's to say they will keep all the planes. Espeically if some of NK's planes get dumped in a BK11 reorganzation.
Alaska and Hawaiian don't have the same level of competition that Frontier and Spirit have.
Your pilot acquaintance working in another airline training center should stick to flying and training instead of making apples to oranges comparisons.
The level of dysfunction is impressive with 152 airplanes, can't even imagine what it would be with 350.
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