the "New" Frontier - breaks away from ULCC ?
06-24-2024, 09:47 PM
#111
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,147
Several theories abound - mine is that they don't want to. Contract negotiations, a failed merger attempt and an owner's desire to go back to being a private business. My theory has been explained in many threads (maybe even this one) previously. I've been very vocal that I think Franke wants Biffle to drive the stock price down to buy it all back and go private again. And why not - offer stock at $20/share, gain the cash, drive the price to $3 then buy it all back. You just made $17 a share (it doesn't work exactly like that but you get the gist).
Check the link - 10-Qs from many quarters. Last quarter, we gained in load factor (year over year) but charged less in ticket prices. We also shifted some tax liability/burden to show an expenditure that didn't need to be paid when it was. It's all smoke and mirrors. One thing seems certain, the past 2-3 years (post covid hangover/revenge travel) that it's difficult to NOT make a profit. Every other airline has but the one who's supposed to be the most cost effective, with the cheapest leases, the most fuel efficient engines, the cheapest labor force and several other things hasn't? Doesn't make sense.
As mentioned, how else would ANY CEO still have a job w/ the pathetic track record of Biffle and F9 as of late?
I have no proof - nor will I ever get any. And I've mentioned several times that this company should be investigated by the SEC - but it's hard to prove colusion.
https://ir.flyfrontier.com/financial...-filings-table
Check the link - 10-Qs from many quarters. Last quarter, we gained in load factor (year over year) but charged less in ticket prices. We also shifted some tax liability/burden to show an expenditure that didn't need to be paid when it was. It's all smoke and mirrors. One thing seems certain, the past 2-3 years (post covid hangover/revenge travel) that it's difficult to NOT make a profit. Every other airline has but the one who's supposed to be the most cost effective, with the cheapest leases, the most fuel efficient engines, the cheapest labor force and several other things hasn't? Doesn't make sense.
As mentioned, how else would ANY CEO still have a job w/ the pathetic track record of Biffle and F9 as of late?
I have no proof - nor will I ever get any. And I've mentioned several times that this company should be investigated by the SEC - but it's hard to prove colusion.
https://ir.flyfrontier.com/financial...-filings-table
a few folks at mountain capital have speculated on indigo buying back shares and going private again. The problem becomes if it can be proven management tanked the stock intentionally to do that they would open themselves up to litigation from some large institutional legal departments.
For that reason I just don’t see the market cap tank as intentional but I guess anything is possible. IMO it’s just incompetence from leadership.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 06-24-2024 at 10:10 PM.
06-25-2024, 06:19 AM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 427
Several theories abound - mine is that they don't want to. Contract negotiations, a failed merger attempt and an owner's desire to go back to being a private business. My theory has been explained in many threads (maybe even this one) previously. I've been very vocal that I think Franke wants Biffle to drive the stock price down to buy it all back and go private again. And why not - offer stock at $20/share, gain the cash, drive the price to $3 then buy it all back. You just made $17 a share (it doesn't work exactly like that but you get the gist).
Check the link - 10-Qs from many quarters. Last quarter, we gained in load factor (year over year) but charged less in ticket prices. We also shifted some tax liability/burden to show an expenditure that didn't need to be paid when it was. It's all smoke and mirrors. One thing seems certain, the past 2-3 years (post covid hangover/revenge travel) that it's difficult to NOT make a profit. Every other airline has but the one who's supposed to be the most cost effective, with the cheapest leases, the most fuel efficient engines, the cheapest labor force and several other things hasn't? Doesn't make sense.
As mentioned, how else would ANY CEO still have a job w/ the pathetic track record of Biffle and F9 as of late?
I have no proof - nor will I ever get any. And I've mentioned several times that this company should be investigated by the SEC - but it's hard to prove colusion.
https://ir.flyfrontier.com/financial...-filings-table
Check the link - 10-Qs from many quarters. Last quarter, we gained in load factor (year over year) but charged less in ticket prices. We also shifted some tax liability/burden to show an expenditure that didn't need to be paid when it was. It's all smoke and mirrors. One thing seems certain, the past 2-3 years (post covid hangover/revenge travel) that it's difficult to NOT make a profit. Every other airline has but the one who's supposed to be the most cost effective, with the cheapest leases, the most fuel efficient engines, the cheapest labor force and several other things hasn't? Doesn't make sense.
As mentioned, how else would ANY CEO still have a job w/ the pathetic track record of Biffle and F9 as of late?
I have no proof - nor will I ever get any. And I've mentioned several times that this company should be investigated by the SEC - but it's hard to prove colusion.
https://ir.flyfrontier.com/financial...-filings-table
But, this is where I admit I'm not an accountant and don't pretend to know or understand. Why and how are the questions.
Why- stock buyback to go private, another merger attempt, undercut the pilot group during negotiations. IDK
How- showing depreciation, other non-cash expenses, one-time charges, inventory evaluations, etc. (again this is where I'm not an accountant of a large company)
But, like Fcoolaiddrinker said, it probably is just pure and total incompetence. Tin foil hat off.
06-25-2024, 07:13 AM
#113
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Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 677
06-25-2024, 07:57 AM
#114
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Joined APC: Jan 2024
Posts: 103
I guess the axiom is true: If you can't determine someone's motivations, then look at the results of their actions and deduce their motivations.
BB is motivated to achieve the lowest scores on every metric used to measure an airline's performance and provide a miserable experience for our customers. This is the goal and it must be true, because that is the measurable outcome under BB's leadership and the board keeps BB at the helm with no indication of disatisfaction.
Just like matter can neither be created nor destroyed, the money has to show up somewhere. It has to. I don't know where it's going or even how to investigate it, but the powers that be have created a garbage airline that shouldn't exist and are using it to build their wealth.
BB is motivated to achieve the lowest scores on every metric used to measure an airline's performance and provide a miserable experience for our customers. This is the goal and it must be true, because that is the measurable outcome under BB's leadership and the board keeps BB at the helm with no indication of disatisfaction.
Just like matter can neither be created nor destroyed, the money has to show up somewhere. It has to. I don't know where it's going or even how to investigate it, but the powers that be have created a garbage airline that shouldn't exist and are using it to build their wealth.
06-25-2024, 08:03 AM
#115
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,311
a misunderstanding exists about share price.
nobody in management, to include CEO, President, Director of the Universe, nobody, can "force the share price down."
In addition, management (in theory) works for the largest shareholders, and managements job is to run a company so that share price goes UP (not down...) thus returning ROI for those largest shareholders.
In recent years, with various "green initiatives", "make an impact on the world" stuff, etc etc, companies have shifted from a pure greed is good play and CEO's can often be found talking about "making an impact", giving free shoes away to the homeless, etc. So retaining share value is not publicly in your face #1 goal anymore. BUT make no mistake, it is still the goal.
When companies need a bailout, or need a Senator in their corner, their effots to help the homeless, fly veterans for free, build an elementary school, etc etc will be touted.
this is all a big game.
low share prices does NOTHING positive for Frontier.
nobody in management, to include CEO, President, Director of the Universe, nobody, can "force the share price down."
In addition, management (in theory) works for the largest shareholders, and managements job is to run a company so that share price goes UP (not down...) thus returning ROI for those largest shareholders.
In recent years, with various "green initiatives", "make an impact on the world" stuff, etc etc, companies have shifted from a pure greed is good play and CEO's can often be found talking about "making an impact", giving free shoes away to the homeless, etc. So retaining share value is not publicly in your face #1 goal anymore. BUT make no mistake, it is still the goal.
When companies need a bailout, or need a Senator in their corner, their effots to help the homeless, fly veterans for free, build an elementary school, etc etc will be touted.
this is all a big game.
low share prices does NOTHING positive for Frontier.
06-25-2024, 09:07 AM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 427
Just like matter can neither be created nor destroyed, the money has to show up somewhere. It has to. I don't know where it's going or even how to investigate it, but the powers that be have created a garbage airline that shouldn't exist and are using it to build their wealth.
Sure as sh#t, there's no one here for the humanity of it all.
06-25-2024, 09:39 AM
#117
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Joined APC: Jan 2024
Posts: 103
Of course people create a business to make money, but when someone opens a donut shop they do it with the intent of making better donuts than the other guy and that drives their profits and in turn their wealth. Frontier is purposely run to provide the worst possible product, drive people away, lose money and yet it is a winning formula generating wealth for the major stakeholders.
06-25-2024, 10:06 AM
#118
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Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 427
Of course people create a business to make money, but when someone opens a donut shop they do it with the intent of making better donuts than the other guy and that drives their profits and in turn their wealth. Frontier is purposely run to provide the worst possible product, drive people away, lose money and yet it is a winning formula generating wealth for the major stakeholders.
Say what you will about the major stakeholders, but they’ve obviously turned this place around. Certainly they’ve had some bad ideas. Which airline hasn’t?
American with all its stock buybacks, and its pullback from markets that United and Delta now capitalize on? The firing of Vasu who arguably was the party of bad ideas.
Hows about SW? Between their meltdowns due to reservation tech system, or lack of investor trust in their CEO “it’s not Herb’s airline anymore”.
Jetblue with their “culture”? Less on time than we are according to recent reports, and a revamping of their baggage fees for the worse?
06-26-2024, 07:11 AM
#119
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,425
Why would indigo intentionally tank share price if they were using 50% stock to purchase nk? They would cost themselves a ton of $/shares by doing so. Are you saying they became incompetent intentionally after the failed merger?
a few folks at mountain capital have speculated on indigo buying back shares and going private again. The problem becomes if it can be proven management tanked the stock intentionally to do that they would open themselves up to litigation from some large institutional legal departments.
For that reason I just don’t see the market cap tank as intentional but I guess anything is possible. IMO it’s just incompetence from leadership.
a few folks at mountain capital have speculated on indigo buying back shares and going private again. The problem becomes if it can be proven management tanked the stock intentionally to do that they would open themselves up to litigation from some large institutional legal departments.
For that reason I just don’t see the market cap tank as intentional but I guess anything is possible. IMO it’s just incompetence from leadership.
As mentioned above this comment, NO ONE outside of upper mgt/ownership knows why they have intentionally made this such a lousy product but it is obvious that noone would ever do this poorly while actually trying to be decent.
06-26-2024, 07:19 AM
#120
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Joined APC: Dec 2022
Posts: 856
I just wanna come in here and say that IndiGo is breaking records for profits, growth, and also has on time and completion performance that rivals Delta. They also have wifi and purchased widebodies as well.
The ULCC/LCC model works, but only when you treat your customers well and can provide a good service. You know how many people don't care about the seatback TVs on Delta or the snacks? They care about getting where they need to go, when they need to, and the support to help them if they don't make it on that flight.
That being said, what do I know. I haven't ran an airline, the closest I got was my multiple college classes about airline management.
also p.s- In one of my classes we had a simulator for running airlines that we ran every week and my group beat everyone else by millions of $ profit because we chose a ULCC style airline to create. (so in the sim low fares done right works LOL)
If ALPA says strike, I will be there.
The ULCC/LCC model works, but only when you treat your customers well and can provide a good service. You know how many people don't care about the seatback TVs on Delta or the snacks? They care about getting where they need to go, when they need to, and the support to help them if they don't make it on that flight.
That being said, what do I know. I haven't ran an airline, the closest I got was my multiple college classes about airline management.
also p.s- In one of my classes we had a simulator for running airlines that we ran every week and my group beat everyone else by millions of $ profit because we chose a ULCC style airline to create. (so in the sim low fares done right works LOL)
If ALPA says strike, I will be there.
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