Safety Issue
10-03-2022, 08:20 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,493
Another thing that has bugged me for years is the lack of 6 hours credit on those night west coast red eye turns out of DEN. (Other bases might do similar pairings)
We used to get paid 6 hours credit to do a stand up, but the redeye turns don't qualify. Total BS
10-03-2022, 10:39 AM
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 36
Safety ...
Red eyes paid needs to be carefully worded in next CBA ! That's means start with any Leg that End after 12:30 Am or any paring that starts before 6Am ... that day credit will need to paid with " red eye" over ride !
its used to be that Vegas and Denver gets most of the red eye trips that's No longer apply , Orlando the second bigger East Cost base have just as many red eyes trips as the west cost bases. , !
If it's Cost company money's to have to paid extra more for red eyes trips! I bet you someone one will quickly figured a ways to Limited the eye trips! That's just solve your safety issues! That's One of the ways to bring the company's to the table with issues dealing with Quality of life " / safety issues!
Just looked at the how the company dealt with the Premium trips ! It's Cost them a bunch a money in the beginning of summer! They figured it out how to " ended" to just like that !
its used to be that Vegas and Denver gets most of the red eye trips that's No longer apply , Orlando the second bigger East Cost base have just as many red eyes trips as the west cost bases. , !
If it's Cost company money's to have to paid extra more for red eyes trips! I bet you someone one will quickly figured a ways to Limited the eye trips! That's just solve your safety issues! That's One of the ways to bring the company's to the table with issues dealing with Quality of life " / safety issues!
Just looked at the how the company dealt with the Premium trips ! It's Cost them a bunch a money in the beginning of summer! They figured it out how to " ended" to just like that !
10-03-2022, 04:33 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,443
Red eyes paid needs to be carefully worded in next CBA ! That's means start with any Leg that End after 12:30 Am or any paring that starts before 6Am ... that day credit will need to paid with " red eye" over ride !
its used to be that Vegas and Denver gets most of the red eye trips that's No longer apply , Orlando the second bigger East Cost base have just as many red eyes trips as the west cost bases. , !
If it's Cost company money's to have to paid extra more for red eyes trips! I bet you someone one will quickly figured a ways to Limited the eye trips! That's just solve your safety issues! That's One of the ways to bring the company's to the table with issues dealing with Quality of life " / safety issues!
Just looked at the how the company dealt with the Premium trips ! It's Cost them a bunch a money in the beginning of summer! They figured it out how to " ended" to just like that !
its used to be that Vegas and Denver gets most of the red eye trips that's No longer apply , Orlando the second bigger East Cost base have just as many red eyes trips as the west cost bases. , !
If it's Cost company money's to have to paid extra more for red eyes trips! I bet you someone one will quickly figured a ways to Limited the eye trips! That's just solve your safety issues! That's One of the ways to bring the company's to the table with issues dealing with Quality of life " / safety issues!
Just looked at the how the company dealt with the Premium trips ! It's Cost them a bunch a money in the beginning of summer! They figured it out how to " ended" to just like that !
No thought about the consequences or how this might affect growth/retention in an environment where every other airline pays more (or the same in the case regionals on the FO side), is hiring just as much and in many cases the upgrade is shorter.
In just about every instance of people leaving that I've heard the reasons after the fact, money wasn't the leading reason. QoL (and the erosion of it as compared to others) was.
10-04-2022, 08:30 AM
#25
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 36
Safety issue
It's amazing how many so called "experts" get jobs as CEO, VP of Flt Ops, etc. then run a company into the ground. It has happened at just about every major airline. It will probably happen here too as it seems we change "models" or goals every other month. Now the direction is 1-2 day flying. Use reserves before offering premium. And, minimal open time. Cost reduction at its greatest as reserves are less likely to pick up on off days and less premium is less premium.
No thought about the consequences or how this might affect growth/retention in an environment where every other airline pays more (or the same in the case regionals on the FO side), is hiring just as much and in many cases the upgrade is shorter.
In just about every instance of people leaving that I've heard the reasons after the fact, money wasn't the leading reason. QoL (and the erosion of it as compared to others) was.
This thread started as related to safety with red eyes type of operations ....I do agree with you that most pilots are typically not the CEO types or business savvy! I have not come across a CEO that was pilots before becoming a " Successful " CEO .. let me know , if you know of one..
Having said that, inoder to for your example that describes such as " thought, consequences,to take affect that growth/ retention etc ... it's goes back to F9 have cost/ consequences on its books in order to get their attention. Or " skin in the games" as I like to describe!
As you said every others airlines pays more for red eye it's operations! if the planner at f9 who's creative these red eyes trips that would have cost affects, my guess, you will see more QoL types parings ! Not sure where you are base or if you are a capt or F/O ... if you are a capt, have the f/o show you the F/O open times most of the open times are red eyes ! F9 loves red eye types ... they wants the airplanes to be flying 24/7 , I get it , it's a business, it's needs to moneys, I'm all for it, that how I get paid...So red eyes flying will take places ... that's doesn't means that they can't built red eyes parings safer/better, ... this issue deal directly to QOL ... the 1-2 days flying that starting in November...in mco .. trips with report time starting 04:00 and finishing the trips at 2200 or later, a lot of the 2 days built that way, some of the them have 2 site before finishing with a victory lap! Imagine that day it's tied to red eye paid ..if enough of those trips and red eyes over ride paid from the company may led to the company to built parings differently... ? with all that said, The QOL issue that the folks that so called leaving f9 for ! 1-2 days flying! So even if one lived in base , with one with a report time 0400am and finishing 10pm the next day..that's get too QOL. "" Forget it about"" if you are happen to be a commuters!
People that's leaving for QOL ...all happpen to be for legacies...which paid more for the flying not mentions among others benefits ..when people used terms QOL as reasons for leaving I count that as money... we could debate about f9/ managements , base closure etc ..I get it! ... I don't blame the folks for leaving ,they now have options/ choices... if you sometimes that always wanted Worked for a Delta , United, AA ,you will always leave no matter what ULCC / company you currently with ! not so much in the pass...supplies and demands! Pilots !
I used premium as an example to illustrated that if the company wants to fixed an issue that cause them money ! They will figure out a way to get it done !
using Resv for open time and cost reductions, up grades.. etc... all Farsi points... not saying you wrong!
My thoughts strictly dealing with red eyes flying/ safety issues that started this topic! the changes that will needs for negotiations in the next CBA will be very interesting too see if checks and balances regarding our type of flying/ QOL can be improved .. ... ithe roead always lead back to " money" ...
No thought about the consequences or how this might affect growth/retention in an environment where every other airline pays more (or the same in the case regionals on the FO side), is hiring just as much and in many cases the upgrade is shorter.
In just about every instance of people leaving that I've heard the reasons after the fact, money wasn't the leading reason. QoL (and the erosion of it as compared to others) was.
This thread started as related to safety with red eyes type of operations ....I do agree with you that most pilots are typically not the CEO types or business savvy! I have not come across a CEO that was pilots before becoming a " Successful " CEO .. let me know , if you know of one..
Having said that, inoder to for your example that describes such as " thought, consequences,to take affect that growth/ retention etc ... it's goes back to F9 have cost/ consequences on its books in order to get their attention. Or " skin in the games" as I like to describe!
As you said every others airlines pays more for red eye it's operations! if the planner at f9 who's creative these red eyes trips that would have cost affects, my guess, you will see more QoL types parings ! Not sure where you are base or if you are a capt or F/O ... if you are a capt, have the f/o show you the F/O open times most of the open times are red eyes ! F9 loves red eye types ... they wants the airplanes to be flying 24/7 , I get it , it's a business, it's needs to moneys, I'm all for it, that how I get paid...So red eyes flying will take places ... that's doesn't means that they can't built red eyes parings safer/better, ... this issue deal directly to QOL ... the 1-2 days flying that starting in November...in mco .. trips with report time starting 04:00 and finishing the trips at 2200 or later, a lot of the 2 days built that way, some of the them have 2 site before finishing with a victory lap! Imagine that day it's tied to red eye paid ..if enough of those trips and red eyes over ride paid from the company may led to the company to built parings differently... ? with all that said, The QOL issue that the folks that so called leaving f9 for ! 1-2 days flying! So even if one lived in base , with one with a report time 0400am and finishing 10pm the next day..that's get too QOL. "" Forget it about"" if you are happen to be a commuters!
People that's leaving for QOL ...all happpen to be for legacies...which paid more for the flying not mentions among others benefits ..when people used terms QOL as reasons for leaving I count that as money... we could debate about f9/ managements , base closure etc ..I get it! ... I don't blame the folks for leaving ,they now have options/ choices... if you sometimes that always wanted Worked for a Delta , United, AA ,you will always leave no matter what ULCC / company you currently with ! not so much in the pass...supplies and demands! Pilots !
I used premium as an example to illustrated that if the company wants to fixed an issue that cause them money ! They will figure out a way to get it done !
using Resv for open time and cost reductions, up grades.. etc... all Farsi points... not saying you wrong!
My thoughts strictly dealing with red eyes flying/ safety issues that started this topic! the changes that will needs for negotiations in the next CBA will be very interesting too see if checks and balances regarding our type of flying/ QOL can be improved .. ... ithe roead always lead back to " money" ...
10-04-2022, 07:13 PM
#26
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,414
It's amazing how many so called "experts" get jobs as CEO, VP of Flt Ops, etc. then run a company into the ground. It has happened at just about every major airline. It will probably happen here too as it seems we change "models" or goals every other month. Now the direction is 1-2 day flying. Use reserves before offering premium. And, minimal open time. Cost reduction at its greatest as reserves are less likely to pick up on off days and less premium is less premium.
No thought about the consequences or how this might affect growth/retention in an environment where every other airline pays more (or the same in the case regionals on the FO side), is hiring just as much and in many cases the upgrade is shorter.
In just about every instance of people leaving that I've heard the reasons after the fact, money wasn't the leading reason. QoL (and the erosion of it as compared to others) was.
This thread started as related to safety with red eyes type of operations ....I do agree with you that most pilots are typically not the CEO types or business savvy! I have not come across a CEO that was pilots before becoming a " Successful " CEO .. let me know , if you know of one..
Having said that, inoder to for your example that describes such as " thought, consequences,to take affect that growth/ retention etc ... it's goes back to F9 have cost/ consequences on its books in order to get their attention. Or " skin in the games" as I like to describe!
As you said every others airlines pays more for red eye it's operations! if the planner at f9 who's creative these red eyes trips that would have cost affects, my guess, you will see more QoL types parings ! Not sure where you are base or if you are a capt or F/O ... if you are a capt, have the f/o show you the F/O open times most of the open times are red eyes ! F9 loves red eye types ... they wants the airplanes to be flying 24/7 , I get it , it's a business, it's needs to moneys, I'm all for it, that how I get paid...So red eyes flying will take places ... that's doesn't means that they can't built red eyes parings safer/better, ... this issue deal directly to QOL ... the 1-2 days flying that starting in November...in mco .. trips with report time starting 04:00 and finishing the trips at 2200 or later, a lot of the 2 days built that way, some of the them have 2 site before finishing with a victory lap! Imagine that day it's tied to red eye paid ..if enough of those trips and red eyes over ride paid from the company may led to the company to built parings differently... ? with all that said, The QOL issue that the folks that so called leaving f9 for ! 1-2 days flying! So even if one lived in base , with one with a report time 0400am and finishing 10pm the next day..that's get too QOL. "" Forget it about"" if you are happen to be a commuters!
People that's leaving for QOL ...all happpen to be for legacies...which paid more for the flying not mentions among others benefits ..when people used terms QOL as reasons for leaving I count that as money... we could debate about f9/ managements , base closure etc ..I get it! ... I don't blame the folks for leaving ,they now have options/ choices... if you sometimes that always wanted Worked for a Delta , United, AA ,you will always leave no matter what ULCC / company you currently with ! not so much in the pass...supplies and demands! Pilots !
I used premium as an example to illustrated that if the company wants to fixed an issue that cause them money ! They will figure out a way to get it done !
using Resv for open time and cost reductions, up grades.. etc... all Farsi points... not saying you wrong!
My thoughts strictly dealing with red eyes flying/ safety issues that started this topic! the changes that will needs for negotiations in the next CBA will be very interesting too see if checks and balances regarding our type of flying/ QOL can be improved .. ... ithe roead always lead back to " money" ...
No thought about the consequences or how this might affect growth/retention in an environment where every other airline pays more (or the same in the case regionals on the FO side), is hiring just as much and in many cases the upgrade is shorter.
In just about every instance of people leaving that I've heard the reasons after the fact, money wasn't the leading reason. QoL (and the erosion of it as compared to others) was.
This thread started as related to safety with red eyes type of operations ....I do agree with you that most pilots are typically not the CEO types or business savvy! I have not come across a CEO that was pilots before becoming a " Successful " CEO .. let me know , if you know of one..
Having said that, inoder to for your example that describes such as " thought, consequences,to take affect that growth/ retention etc ... it's goes back to F9 have cost/ consequences on its books in order to get their attention. Or " skin in the games" as I like to describe!
As you said every others airlines pays more for red eye it's operations! if the planner at f9 who's creative these red eyes trips that would have cost affects, my guess, you will see more QoL types parings ! Not sure where you are base or if you are a capt or F/O ... if you are a capt, have the f/o show you the F/O open times most of the open times are red eyes ! F9 loves red eye types ... they wants the airplanes to be flying 24/7 , I get it , it's a business, it's needs to moneys, I'm all for it, that how I get paid...So red eyes flying will take places ... that's doesn't means that they can't built red eyes parings safer/better, ... this issue deal directly to QOL ... the 1-2 days flying that starting in November...in mco .. trips with report time starting 04:00 and finishing the trips at 2200 or later, a lot of the 2 days built that way, some of the them have 2 site before finishing with a victory lap! Imagine that day it's tied to red eye paid ..if enough of those trips and red eyes over ride paid from the company may led to the company to built parings differently... ? with all that said, The QOL issue that the folks that so called leaving f9 for ! 1-2 days flying! So even if one lived in base , with one with a report time 0400am and finishing 10pm the next day..that's get too QOL. "" Forget it about"" if you are happen to be a commuters!
People that's leaving for QOL ...all happpen to be for legacies...which paid more for the flying not mentions among others benefits ..when people used terms QOL as reasons for leaving I count that as money... we could debate about f9/ managements , base closure etc ..I get it! ... I don't blame the folks for leaving ,they now have options/ choices... if you sometimes that always wanted Worked for a Delta , United, AA ,you will always leave no matter what ULCC / company you currently with ! not so much in the pass...supplies and demands! Pilots !
I used premium as an example to illustrated that if the company wants to fixed an issue that cause them money ! They will figure out a way to get it done !
using Resv for open time and cost reductions, up grades.. etc... all Farsi points... not saying you wrong!
My thoughts strictly dealing with red eyes flying/ safety issues that started this topic! the changes that will needs for negotiations in the next CBA will be very interesting too see if checks and balances regarding our type of flying/ QOL can be improved .. ... ithe roead always lead back to " money" ...
10-05-2022, 04:42 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Airbus (the wide ones)
Posts: 107
10-05-2022, 11:29 PM
#28
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2022
Posts: 31
I just finished this trip, was on long call, MCO based, but called to cover a Miami 3 day.
Started at 1430 for the DH, ended 2230 in ONT
DH:
MCO - MIA (DH was 1:08hrs on AA)
MIA - LAS 5:16hrs
LAS - ONT 1:06hrs
13hr overnight with 3 legs next day
It was an exhausting 3 day trip, last day was just LAS - MIA and I deviated from there.
Started at 1430 for the DH, ended 2230 in ONT
DH:
MCO - MIA (DH was 1:08hrs on AA)
MIA - LAS 5:16hrs
LAS - ONT 1:06hrs
13hr overnight with 3 legs next day
It was an exhausting 3 day trip, last day was just LAS - MIA and I deviated from there.
10-06-2022, 07:12 AM
#29
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 36
Safety issue
I just finished this trip, was on long call, MCO based, but called to cover a Miami 3 day.
Started at 1430 for the DH, ended 2230 in ONT
DH:
MCO - MIA (DH was 1:08hrs on AA)
MIA - LAS 5:16hrs
LAS - ONT 1:06hrs
13hr overnight with 3 legs next day
It was an exhausting 3 day trip, last day was just LAS - MIA and I deviated from there.
Red eyes flying are tough! So it's being on Resv! Resv suck for every Airlines....
Now, Speaking from the company views, the trips are built legal and you sign for it!! meaning you took the Job with F9!
As a Resv . Short call or Long calls typically are not Good! No matter what Airlines you with!
There's are of the reasons why Seniority's are So important to protect!
As a Resv, you kinda expect trips like to be assigned! In the passed , they might have made your miserable trip into a premium which would have been worth it to someone ! the paid would have push the " tired / fatigue risks back onto the pilots ". Understanding that after this trips you would need a day or 2 to recover .! Or
..if we had meaningful red eye paid, you would have at least gotten paid for it And now you might be able to drop a Resv a day to recover and not loose a day paid...
i think, I m done lol , I am beating a dead horse! Waisting enough time... let get back to the kitchen and make some pizzas to sell....
Started at 1430 for the DH, ended 2230 in ONT
DH:
MCO - MIA (DH was 1:08hrs on AA)
MIA - LAS 5:16hrs
LAS - ONT 1:06hrs
13hr overnight with 3 legs next day
It was an exhausting 3 day trip, last day was just LAS - MIA and I deviated from there.
Red eyes flying are tough! So it's being on Resv! Resv suck for every Airlines....
Now, Speaking from the company views, the trips are built legal and you sign for it!! meaning you took the Job with F9!
As a Resv . Short call or Long calls typically are not Good! No matter what Airlines you with!
There's are of the reasons why Seniority's are So important to protect!
As a Resv, you kinda expect trips like to be assigned! In the passed , they might have made your miserable trip into a premium which would have been worth it to someone ! the paid would have push the " tired / fatigue risks back onto the pilots ". Understanding that after this trips you would need a day or 2 to recover .! Or
..if we had meaningful red eye paid, you would have at least gotten paid for it And now you might be able to drop a Resv a day to recover and not loose a day paid...
i think, I m done lol , I am beating a dead horse! Waisting enough time... let get back to the kitchen and make some pizzas to sell....
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