dracir1

Since you went there...

The regional proliferation started in the 1960s but really took off after the Deregulation Act of 1978. To date, every major airline (except for SW) has codeshare agreements if I'm not mistaken. That's codeshare for DOMESTIC lift. During the 80s and 90s when proliferation really took off w/ RJs, airline focus shifted to smaller markets in order to increase utilization of their medium to long range aircraft. People who live in Midland, Tx or Durango, Co or Bakersfield, Ca now had a choice other than driving all the way to a major airport (or just deciding not to take the trip). United wasn't going to bring a 737 into Durango as it didn't make financial sense (among other things). So, the codeshare was started with the argument that w/o the short range lift, medium and longer range lift would suffer (thus, leading to stagnation/furlough at mainline). That codeshare mentality later ran "out of control" once mainline decided the RJ would no longer serve just smaller markets and was now flying Denver to KC or Dallas or Salt Lake. Codeshare replacement instead of augmentation. That is where scope protection was needed most but didn't occur to pilot groups (until later). By that time, salaries at mainline were already high enough that the cost of scope protection could be traded at the next negotiation, and new start up airlines (SW, etc.) were cognizant of its importance.

However, that wasn't the case at the regionals and the damage was done. Thus, the eternal whipsaw of the regionals DID occur and grow. Personally, I truly feel that had domestic codeshare had been limited to routes/markets instead of seats per plane (goverment fault), the landscape of the airline industry would be drastically different. But alas, as you so aptly mentioned, scope is out of the bag at this point (not just for F9 but ALL airlines). How do you ever put it back? So, Mr Whiskey, I do agree w/ you there. But to answer the question...

You put it back one piece at a time. This negotiation, you ask for some of it back. Then the next negotation, you ask for a little more. And so on (just like SW did).

So, probably for like the 19th time now, I'm not saying codeshare is not a threat - because it is. But, I'm saying the cost of protection from it shouldn't cost you the world. F9 is starting so low w/ just about everyting in our contract - to include scope - that I don't think its the right move to make this the SCOPE ONLY contract and we worry about pay and QoL items in the next one.

Case in point, SW has that great scope language and look at their seniority list and stagnation. Not a lot of retirements, they hire only certain times of the year, guys are on reserve for years and upgrade can be a decade or longer. Plus, because of the high cost of a SW ticket, they rely heavily on brand loyalty via a history of excellent customer service and on-time flying - something F9 will probably never have. I must admit, SW is the epitome of slow, sustained expansion and product development but a lot of what they are experiencing now is the inevitability of growth. Not having codeshare won't make up for every external factor (9/11, fuel prices, etc.) anymore than it will for having poor management.

Speaking of poor management, what about those "other guys"? Those behomoth mainline arbitrosses that you mentioned with their stagnation and lack of vision that led to the downfall of the airline pilot industry as we know it? Well, some of them (not all) survived as did some of the airline companies. Were there layoffs and furloughs because of codeshare? I'm sure there were. Were there furloughs that had nothing to do with codeshare? Of course. Did guys get absorbed on the bottom of other airline seniority lists because of mismanagement and fiscal irresponsibility? I'm know a few TWA pilots who have something to say about that. Do they all wish they had better scope protection? Some do. Others stated that if they were able to make more money during their career (because not all of them were scoped out after being newly hired), they wouldn't need to work at all. I do have a few friends that were furloughed that could care less about scope because scope wasn't the reason they were fuloughed.

Are we as pilots trying to buy protection from every single possible scenario that might be detrimental to our careers? To my knowledge, there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE furlough protection (AFLAC for pilots). At least if there is, it's not being offered by my company. And given how cheap my company is (I have to buy my own snacks when I non-rev), I can't imagine what they would charge for it.

There is only one thing that the TWA and all of the other pilots that I know that were either furloughed or exited the industry before retirment wished they had - EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM wished they had a better retirement plan!!!!

MtnPeakCruiser

Why are there Spirit Pilots (or those that have pretended to be) on Frontier’s forum chanting “Scope, Scope, Scope” ?

The timing of these Spirit posters and other first time posters is suspicious to me.

This smells and looks like a carrot, so I’m thinking it’s a carrot. The union was already hard set on industry standard scope but you guys are insane if you think that Scope should be number one on my list of necessary improvements to our contract.

You need an asset worth protecting before you buy the insurance; would it make any sense to have the best car insurance policy money can buy on a Pontiac Aztec? If that thing breaks down in a ditch, just set it on fire and walk away. That’s Frontier, a Pontiac Aztec, we don’t even have a Toyota Corolla here. We’re not asking for a Ferrari contract but I need at least a Premium sedan before I’m sweating the insurance.

If I don’t get proper pay and benefits, Frontier can take this job and shove it. So I don’t need SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE to protect a job with a company that I nor many others will tolerate without proper compensation. Period.

Qotsaautopilot

Somewhat agree but you have to assume you’re getting that premium sedan in any TA like we are. You don’t drive it off the lot if it’s not insured and can be repo’d next week

MtnPeakCruiser

I’m not driving an Aztec off the lot, it’s the car I’ve been put in and it wasn’t as bad 10 years ago when it just ugly, but now relative to every other car (pilot contract), it’s a total P.O.S.

I won’t worry about the insurance until I know we’re getting a new car.

I started using this metaphor, but this is starting to get excessive.

upup89

I agree. The amount of what im assuming are NK pilots coming on this thread and taking a victory lap is strange. Congrats on the AIP guys, you truly deserve it but Indigo seems to be dead set on forming a ULCC world/star/team alliance and I cant say I blame them for the idea.

Qotsaautopilot

It’s not meant to be a victory lap I assure you. Our AIP is not impressive by any stretch. I might be acceptable if scope is locked down is all. And this new codeshare highlights that for us.

dracir1

I'm sure your NC has asked for as much favorable scope language they can find. Do you really expect Indigo to just say "Ok?" What incentive do they have to give in? If you were Indigo, how much would you charge your labor unions to not have the ability to codeshare out cheaper lift?

More importanly, how will you vote if scope isn't locked down (which it probably won't be)? Vote it down? Vote yes but complain about it til the next negotiation? Leave for SW?

Or do you get what you can elsewhere while the getting's good?

Qotsaautopilot

I’ll leave it to you guys. We are not going to agree on the importance. Good luck

dracir1

Interesting way to duck out of that question...

But good luck to you’ll as well

Chief Brody

Wonder who Qatar is looking at buying a stake in?