Volaris and Frontier to Codeshare
01-17-2018, 12:22 AM
#31
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Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 550
Aside from the scope issue, I think we are missing the probable intention here. Indigo only owns 18% of Volaris, yet 100% of Frontier. Which airline do you think Indigo wants to grow and add routes to? And which airline are they just selling planes to?
01-17-2018, 06:31 AM
#34
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
I'm an ExpressJet alum. I understand whipsaw. Eventually all airlines merge or fail (see SW, Delta, AA, United, Pan Am, Eastern, TWA and so many others). Not all mergers are bad for everyone. The codeshare w/ Volaris is a foreign airline - not a domestic. So, even though they are probably cheaper they are still restricted from doing certain flying. Let's see what the language says about the share.
At the same time, I'm also not under the illusion that I work for an airline that gives two s*&ts about me or you or anyone else. How long does anyone REALLY expect Frontier to exist in the form of employing US pilots at US industry standard wages? There are literally a 100+ other airlines (both domestic and foreign) that already operate at cheaper rates than F9 does (even at our ridiculously low pay rates). The ability to codeshare has been in place for a while now and as mentioned previously, Obama and Trump aren't going to stop NAI - it's a wonder all of our labor hasn't been shared out already. Are there really regionals and/or foreign airlines positioned to do that much of F9 flying? If so, why haven't deals been struck already? For us, is the thought process now to close the barn door now that one cow has been let out? How much do you presume that will cost in terms of hourly rate? This contract never had scope - now all of the sudden we're worried about it since they actually decided to exercise that option? Are you really surprised at this - especially during negotiations? To that end, why would F9 allow ANY codeshare restrictions at this point?
I don't know the answers - neither do you. All I do know is that this is FRONTIER AIRLINES. This is NOT a long term destination airline. This is NOT some place to go to expect a 30+ year career and a place to hope your kids become a part of. This airline's fate was sealed the second Indigo signed the purchase agreement. I knew that when I got hired. I don't have the expectation of rainbows and unicorns dancing....I plan on staying only as long as it takes to get hired elsewhere and to get as much $ as I can while I'm here. This company does not care about the pilot group. So, in these negotiations, what we need as a pilot group is furlough protection as long as the cost of which is not too high. Otherwise, we need to be shooting for MAX pay. Many people talked about the Spirit AIP as some success story - do you still think so now w/ the looming Volaris codeshare deal? If the seniority list stagnates and concessionary contracts come as part of being codeshared out to the max, I will view that as an inevitable part of flying and we all have the distinct pleasure of picking the wrong airline - whether you were here before Indigo or not doesn't matter. We need to get our money NOW before we don't have the ability to get anything at all. This airline is an investment and the sooner we all realize that the smarter we will be about how we go about positioning ourselves in this and subsequent negotiations.
At the same time, I'm also not under the illusion that I work for an airline that gives two s*&ts about me or you or anyone else. How long does anyone REALLY expect Frontier to exist in the form of employing US pilots at US industry standard wages? There are literally a 100+ other airlines (both domestic and foreign) that already operate at cheaper rates than F9 does (even at our ridiculously low pay rates). The ability to codeshare has been in place for a while now and as mentioned previously, Obama and Trump aren't going to stop NAI - it's a wonder all of our labor hasn't been shared out already. Are there really regionals and/or foreign airlines positioned to do that much of F9 flying? If so, why haven't deals been struck already? For us, is the thought process now to close the barn door now that one cow has been let out? How much do you presume that will cost in terms of hourly rate? This contract never had scope - now all of the sudden we're worried about it since they actually decided to exercise that option? Are you really surprised at this - especially during negotiations? To that end, why would F9 allow ANY codeshare restrictions at this point?
I don't know the answers - neither do you. All I do know is that this is FRONTIER AIRLINES. This is NOT a long term destination airline. This is NOT some place to go to expect a 30+ year career and a place to hope your kids become a part of. This airline's fate was sealed the second Indigo signed the purchase agreement. I knew that when I got hired. I don't have the expectation of rainbows and unicorns dancing....I plan on staying only as long as it takes to get hired elsewhere and to get as much $ as I can while I'm here. This company does not care about the pilot group. So, in these negotiations, what we need as a pilot group is furlough protection as long as the cost of which is not too high. Otherwise, we need to be shooting for MAX pay. Many people talked about the Spirit AIP as some success story - do you still think so now w/ the looming Volaris codeshare deal? If the seniority list stagnates and concessionary contracts come as part of being codeshared out to the max, I will view that as an inevitable part of flying and we all have the distinct pleasure of picking the wrong airline - whether you were here before Indigo or not doesn't matter. We need to get our money NOW before we don't have the ability to get anything at all. This airline is an investment and the sooner we all realize that the smarter we will be about how we go about positioning ourselves in this and subsequent negotiations.
WOW. How about trying to make it a career airline in case no one else ever calls you which is a distinct possibility. I don’t think Scope is suddenly an issue now that it’s been exploited. At Spirit I’ve been saying this for years even though Management hasn’t used it against us yet. If your aren’t looking to the future I think you are going to have a rude awakening one day. You’d be happy making $250 for a couple years til you get outsourced out of a job than making $230 for a few years, locking down Scope, and being able to negotiate raises 2-6 more times in your career? I think contract expat flying is for you. The Asia contracts give you exactly what you are looking for, big money for a couple years and maybe you’ll have a job in a few years and maybe you won’t. You’re hurting the rest of the frontier pilot group with your attitude.
01-17-2018, 11:21 AM
#35
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 869
01-17-2018, 01:23 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,441
WOW. How about trying to make it a career airline in case no one else ever calls you which is a distinct possibility. I don’t think Scope is suddenly an issue now that it’s been exploited. At Spirit I’ve been saying this for years even though Management hasn’t used it against us yet. If your aren’t looking to the future I think you are going to have a rude awakening one day. You’d be happy making $250 for a couple years til you get outsourced out of a job than making $230 for a few years, locking down Scope, and being able to negotiate raises 2-6 more times in your career? I think contract expat flying is for you. The Asia contracts give you exactly what you are looking for, big money for a couple years and maybe you’ll have a job in a few years and maybe you won’t. You’re hurting the rest of the frontier pilot group with your attitude.
1). I don't view codeshare as THAT much of a threat. Indigo is an entity that is concerned w/ making as much $ as it can for as long as it can and is much too greedy to lose percentages in a codeshare w/ an airline they are not vested in. Indigo is principal owner of four airlines - none of which are domestic except for F9. As I stated previously, the ability to codeshare has ALWAYS existed and has begun w/ Volaris. I'd presume Whizz and JetSMART are next. It quite possibly could happen domestically (maybe w/ NK) but which ever airline it is would have to be SO CHEAP that Indigo's share of the profit would have to exceed all of the profit F9 would get on the same route. To be honest, we're one of the cheapest airlines domestically (and probably will remain so even after contract negotiations) - perhaps in the future we'll be on the RECEIVING end of favorable codeshare. As far as a regional codeshare, I don't think we're big enough to need regional lift just to keep our utilization up (yet). Lastly, I could care less if I fly a widebody internationally (and doubt Indigo would ever purchase any unless the deal was too good to pass up). Codeshare protection is going to come at a pretty premium and is essentially insurance. I don't want my check reduced for something that I never needed to make a claim against nor could I even make a claim myself.
2). Despite the impending raise we're about to get, if another hiccup occurs (like Sept 11th or gas prices skyrocket or whatever), F9 is still suited to weather the storm better than most others. I'm sure there will come a point in time when we aren't the cheapest deal on the block or another alternative is more efficient/better and history has proven EVERY airline either fails or merges. In the failure case, I'd rather have earned as much as I could. If we merge, I'd like a pilot contract with an hourly rate that is favorable and isn't dragging down the industry still.
3). Who knows what the political and economical landscape will look like in 3-5 years. We could have a new President, new labor secretary and new owner(S). At this point, we are at the mercy of the NMB - maybe labor negotiations get even more difficult in the future and at our next go around, we will have wished we would've asked for more. If they do improve, then we'll be that much better positioned to negotiate from strength.
I don't want to live overseas and I don't think my attitude is hurting anyone - least of all F9 pilots. I, for one, don't think it's unheard of to want/expect an industry leading wage from an employer who makes an industry leading percentage of profit (up 43% since 2014) and pays its management in like fashion. Right now, Indigo could pay every single pilot on the seniority list $200 / hr and still make millions.... So, I may not think how you want me to, but that doesn't mean I'm alone in my thinking.
F9 pilots have been living on our knees (through no fault of our own). I'd rather stand up and walk for a while (with the chance I could lose my job years from now) vs. crawling with the protection of being able to do so for a long time. Call me selfish. Call me many other things. But one thing I'm not, is here to earn less for me or my fellow pilots through fear tactics.
Last edited by dracir1; 01-17-2018 at 02:05 PM.
01-17-2018, 02:25 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 612
I understand what you're saying. We're basically discussing the question of (long term) security vs. (maybe long or short term) capital grab. I would love nothing more than to have both but if I have to try and obtain one or the other, I'll shoot for the cash. Why? Several reasons.
1). I don't view codeshare as THAT much of a threat. Indigo is an entity that is concerned w/ making as much $ as it can for as long as it can and is much too greedy to lose percentages in a codeshare w/ an airline they are not vested in. Indigo is principal owner of four airlines - none of which are domestic except for F9. As I stated previously, the ability to codeshare has ALWAYS existed and has begun w/ Volaris. I'd presume Whizz and JetSMART are next. It quite possibly could happen domestically (maybe w/ NK) but which ever airline it is would have to be SO CHEAP that Indigo's share of the profit would have to exceed all of the profit F9 would get on the same route. To be honest, we're one of the cheapest airlines domestically (and probably will remain so even after contract negotiations) - perhaps in the future we'll be on the RECEIVING end of favorable codeshare. As far as a regional codeshare, I don't think we're big enough to need regional lift just to keep our utilization up (yet). Lastly, I could care less if I fly a widebody internationally (and doubt Indigo would ever purchase any unless the deal was too good to pass up). Codeshare protection is going to come at a pretty premium and is essentially insurance. I don't want my check reduced for something that I never needed to make a claim against nor could I even make a claim myself.
2). Despite the impending raise we're about to get, if another hiccup occurs (like Sept 11th or gas prices skyrocket or whatever), F9 is still suited to weather the storm better than most others. I'm sure there will come a point in time when we aren't the cheapest deal on the block or another alternative is more efficient/better and history has proven EVERY airline either fails or merges. In the failure case, I'd rather have earned as much as I could. If we merge, I'd like a pilot contract with an hourly rate that is favorable and isn't dragging down the industry still.
3). Who knows what the political and economical landscape will look like in 3-5 years. We could have a new President, new labor secretary and new owner(S). At this point, we are at the mercy of the NMB - maybe labor negotiations get even more difficult in the future and at our next go around, we will have wished we would've asked for more. If they do improve, then we'll be that much better positioned to negotiate from strength.
I don't want to live overseas and I don't think my attitude is hurting anyone - least of all F9 pilots. I, for one, don't think it's unheard of to want/expect an industry leading wage from an employer who makes an industry leading percentage of profit (up 43% since 2014) and pays its management in like fashion. Right now, Indigo could pay every single pilot on the seniority list $200 / hr and still make millions.... So, I may not think how you want me to, but that doesn't mean I'm alone in my thinking.
F9 pilots have been living on our knees (through no fault of our own). I'd rather stand up and walk for a while (with the chance I could lose my job years from now) vs. crawling with the protection of being able to do so for a long time. Call me selfish. Call me many other things. But one thing I'm not, is here to earn less for me or my fellow pilots through fear tactics.
1). I don't view codeshare as THAT much of a threat. Indigo is an entity that is concerned w/ making as much $ as it can for as long as it can and is much too greedy to lose percentages in a codeshare w/ an airline they are not vested in. Indigo is principal owner of four airlines - none of which are domestic except for F9. As I stated previously, the ability to codeshare has ALWAYS existed and has begun w/ Volaris. I'd presume Whizz and JetSMART are next. It quite possibly could happen domestically (maybe w/ NK) but which ever airline it is would have to be SO CHEAP that Indigo's share of the profit would have to exceed all of the profit F9 would get on the same route. To be honest, we're one of the cheapest airlines domestically (and probably will remain so even after contract negotiations) - perhaps in the future we'll be on the RECEIVING end of favorable codeshare. As far as a regional codeshare, I don't think we're big enough to need regional lift just to keep our utilization up (yet). Lastly, I could care less if I fly a widebody internationally (and doubt Indigo would ever purchase any unless the deal was too good to pass up). Codeshare protection is going to come at a pretty premium and is essentially insurance. I don't want my check reduced for something that I never needed to make a claim against nor could I even make a claim myself.
2). Despite the impending raise we're about to get, if another hiccup occurs (like Sept 11th or gas prices skyrocket or whatever), F9 is still suited to weather the storm better than most others. I'm sure there will come a point in time when we aren't the cheapest deal on the block or another alternative is more efficient/better and history has proven EVERY airline either fails or merges. In the failure case, I'd rather have earned as much as I could. If we merge, I'd like a pilot contract with an hourly rate that is favorable and isn't dragging down the industry still.
3). Who knows what the political and economical landscape will look like in 3-5 years. We could have a new President, new labor secretary and new owner(S). At this point, we are at the mercy of the NMB - maybe labor negotiations get even more difficult in the future and at our next go around, we will have wished we would've asked for more. If they do improve, then we'll be that much better positioned to negotiate from strength.
I don't want to live overseas and I don't think my attitude is hurting anyone - least of all F9 pilots. I, for one, don't think it's unheard of to want/expect an industry leading wage from an employer who makes an industry leading percentage of profit (up 43% since 2014) and pays its management in like fashion. Right now, Indigo could pay every single pilot on the seniority list $200 / hr and still make millions.... So, I may not think how you want me to, but that doesn't mean I'm alone in my thinking.
F9 pilots have been living on our knees (through no fault of our own). I'd rather stand up and walk for a while (with the chance I could lose my job years from now) vs. crawling with the protection of being able to do so for a long time. Call me selfish. Call me many other things. But one thing I'm not, is here to earn less for me or my fellow pilots through fear tactics.
01-17-2018, 02:37 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,441
So you want to make more money now and don't seem worried about what comes tomorrow so you are willing to take a massive loss at your current pay rate now to maybe get a larger raise down the road? Do you see how this is conflicting? The only people at F9 you aren't hurting with your mentality are the ones who don't want to stay anyways. I'd rather make 80% for 30 years than 100% for 5 years especially if that pay starts right now and not 1-2 years.im sorry but anyone who seems to be willing to sell job security to make a quick buck is not only short sighted but also a danger to pilots who plan on making that place a career. Trust me Spirit pilots want legacy pay too but we're not stupid enough to sell our souls for it.
And, why assume that if we make $25 more per hour that we're destined to last only 5 years? Did you read my reason 1? Who are they going to use to replace us on domestic routes that will be cheaper? Indigo only gets a percentage of your profits...
And NO, I'm not willing to take a MASSIVE loss. I'm talking about the exact opposite. It only works if we get released. If not, then we're taking whatever we can get essentially. And words from our NC is that it's basically nothing - no codeshare protection OR pay increase. We haven't been offered anything close to your AIP from what I understand...none of what I'm preaching works at all w/o the NMB allowing us to walk. That was the going in assumption.
My take is that ONCE THAT HAPPENS, accepting recently offered NK rates isn't the best strategy. I'm not trying to throw shade or cast stones but F9 is not in the same negotiating boat as NK.
Last edited by dracir1; 01-17-2018 at 03:12 PM.
01-17-2018, 03:15 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 612
That's a helluva risk...to assume Spirit will be around in 30 years or even longer than F9 especially when you're in the same codeshare boat we are (except for furlough protection).
And, why assume that if we make $25 more per hour that we're destined to last only 5 years? Did you read my reason 1? Who are they going to use to replace us on domestic routes that will be cheaper? Indigo only gets a percentage of your profits...
And NO, I'm not willing to take a MASSIVE loss. I'm talking about the exact opposite. It only works if we get released. If not, then we're taking whatever we can get essentially. And words from our NC is that it's basically nothing - no codeshare protection OR pay increase. None of what I'm preaching works at all w/o the NMB allowing us to walk. That was the going in assumption.
My take is that ONCE THAT HAPPENS, accepting recently offered NK rates isn't the best strategy. I'm not trying to throw shade or cast stones but F9 is not in the same negotiating boat as NK.
And, why assume that if we make $25 more per hour that we're destined to last only 5 years? Did you read my reason 1? Who are they going to use to replace us on domestic routes that will be cheaper? Indigo only gets a percentage of your profits...
And NO, I'm not willing to take a MASSIVE loss. I'm talking about the exact opposite. It only works if we get released. If not, then we're taking whatever we can get essentially. And words from our NC is that it's basically nothing - no codeshare protection OR pay increase. None of what I'm preaching works at all w/o the NMB allowing us to walk. That was the going in assumption.
My take is that ONCE THAT HAPPENS, accepting recently offered NK rates isn't the best strategy. I'm not trying to throw shade or cast stones but F9 is not in the same negotiating boat as NK.
01-17-2018, 04:03 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
It’s obvious they’ve been holding this codeshare agreement in their pocket until the perfect time. Nice negotiating ploy. Remember this along with everything else, including today’s letter, when you apply at an other airline or when you’re getting ready to picket.
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