Volaris and Frontier to Codeshare
01-16-2018, 07:03 PM
#22
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Come on guys. Indigo’s not going to ever use someone like Norwegian. They’d go head to head with Norwegian.
There’s no comparison to what JetBlue is doing with all their foreign code shares. Indigo already owns the foreign companies.
They want to control everything. They’d do it themselves. They pick up a few wide bodies and their feeding all the airlines they already own. Turn key.
There’s no comparison to what JetBlue is doing with all their foreign code shares. Indigo already owns the foreign companies.
They want to control everything. They’d do it themselves. They pick up a few wide bodies and their feeding all the airlines they already own. Turn key.
01-16-2018, 07:13 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 629
01-16-2018, 07:18 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
I get that growth can be codeshared out. But, as I mentioned, that works both ways. There will be tickets that people purchase via Volaris from Guatemala to Seattle that utilize F9 crews/pilots (possibly on the whole trip). I'm not sure as to what the "balance" is in terms of utilization of us vs. them but either way, I'm still being being paid. Why do I care where the customer bought the ticket? I guess the real question is how much do I have to give up in hourly salary to gain the possibility of flying an aircraft (widebody/route) that F9 wants to codeshare out to an airline that already has that aircraft/route? As you mentioned, transocianic codeshare is already happening.
Of course, sooner or later, the adding of pilots to our seniority list will take a hit but that's inevitable whether we codeshare or not - no airline can grow unbounded. I'd much rather get $250 / hr flying my A321 for 20 years than getting $210 / hr for 10 until I can hold an A330 for $290 / hr and fly it for 10 years. The money's the same but my relative seniority on my aircraft is way different which I'm sure will affect my QoL. Also, there's no guarantee that F9 will ever purchase A330s. The one area of protection you mentioned that we don't have is furlough protection...I do think we will need that and I guess it would suck to go back on reserve because of codeshare. So, I DO see this as a potential threat but DON'T think it smart to take less money to ensure we own all the flying we can get our hands on. What if that flying never comes - I'm making less regardless. Routes and gates come and go for every airline.
If anything, this should be ammo for HIGHER rates at this point. If F9 wants to codeshare flying out to EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, then you need to pay me my guarantee at $300 / hr. That is what we should be negotiating - higher rates each time a codeshare is added and the ability to fly positive space with that codeshare. I'll fly my domestic routes w/ a smile on my face and when I take vacation, I will fly Volaris via positive space to one of the many destinations it serves. If the flight originates in the CONUS, I just might be onboard my own uncomfortable metal...
Outside of needing to add furlough protection, what am I missing?
Of course, sooner or later, the adding of pilots to our seniority list will take a hit but that's inevitable whether we codeshare or not - no airline can grow unbounded. I'd much rather get $250 / hr flying my A321 for 20 years than getting $210 / hr for 10 until I can hold an A330 for $290 / hr and fly it for 10 years. The money's the same but my relative seniority on my aircraft is way different which I'm sure will affect my QoL. Also, there's no guarantee that F9 will ever purchase A330s. The one area of protection you mentioned that we don't have is furlough protection...I do think we will need that and I guess it would suck to go back on reserve because of codeshare. So, I DO see this as a potential threat but DON'T think it smart to take less money to ensure we own all the flying we can get our hands on. What if that flying never comes - I'm making less regardless. Routes and gates come and go for every airline.
If anything, this should be ammo for HIGHER rates at this point. If F9 wants to codeshare flying out to EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, then you need to pay me my guarantee at $300 / hr. That is what we should be negotiating - higher rates each time a codeshare is added and the ability to fly positive space with that codeshare. I'll fly my domestic routes w/ a smile on my face and when I take vacation, I will fly Volaris via positive space to one of the many destinations it serves. If the flight originates in the CONUS, I just might be onboard my own uncomfortable metal...
Outside of needing to add furlough protection, what am I missing?
If you don’t own the flying your $250-300/hr means nothing. You are replaceable. And as long as you are replaceable you are also ripe for a whipsaw. You also won’t be able to negotiate higher rates by allowing codesharing. They already have it so you’ll have to buy it back. It’s cheap when it’s just one deal. When it becomes 50% of their operation you won’t be able to buy it back and you’ll have zero leverage at subsequent negotiations, you’ll take less just to keep your job.
Maybe you didn’t come from the regionals. If you don’t sell your own tickets you have zero leverage. If they can get the flights operated by using someone else your $300/hr means diddly.
01-16-2018, 08:59 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 869
The point you’re missing is that, with a codeshare as long as either the destination or departure city is not in the US, a codeshare airline can operate the flight. Usually the airline inside of the codeshare that operates cheaper gets the flying. For example, Ask the United guys how safe they felt their jobs were when AerLingus (Irish airline) was flying from Dulles to Spain because they were cheaper. How would you feel about ALL international flights on Frontier being operated by Volaris? If you don’t have scope, that is possible. Then Frontier management says, well we’re flying less routes (because Volaris is doing all your international routes) so we don’t need all those new airplanes, or even less airplanes than you have now (possible furlough). Then they cancel all the Airbus orders, or since they own Volaris too, they give them the new busses (unless you start taking concessions). Still feel confident in your management to keep your job around? Stop thinking checkers when airline managements are playing 3D Chess. I’m guessing you never worked at a regional
I get that growth can be codeshared out. But, as I mentioned, that works both ways. There will be tickets that people purchase via Volaris from Guatemala to Seattle that utilize F9 crews/pilots (possibly on the whole trip). I'm not sure as to what the "balance" is in terms of utilization of us vs. them but either way, I'm still being being paid. Why do I care where the customer bought the ticket? I guess the real question is how much do I have to give up in hourly salary to gain the possibility of flying an aircraft (widebody/route) that F9 wants to codeshare out to an airline that already has that aircraft/route? As you mentioned, transocianic codeshare is already happening.
Of course, sooner or later, the adding of pilots to our seniority list will take a hit but that's inevitable whether we codeshare or not - no airline can grow unbounded. I'd much rather get $250 / hr flying my A321 for 20 years than getting $210 / hr for 10 until I can hold an A330 for $290 / hr and fly it for 10 years. The money's the same but my relative seniority on my aircraft is way different which I'm sure will affect my QoL. Also, there's no guarantee that F9 will ever purchase A330s. The one area of protection you mentioned that we don't have is furlough protection...I do think we will need that and I guess it would suck to go back on reserve because of codeshare. So, I DO see this as a potential threat but DON'T think it smart to take less money to ensure we own all the flying we can get our hands on. What if that flying never comes - I'm making less regardless. Routes and gates come and go for every airline.
If anything, this should be ammo for HIGHER rates at this point. If F9 wants to codeshare flying out to EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, then you need to pay me my guarantee at $300 / hr. That is what we should be negotiating - higher rates each time a codeshare is added and the ability to fly positive space with that codeshare. I'll fly my domestic routes w/ a smile on my face and when I take vacation, I will fly Volaris via positive space to one of the many destinations it serves. If the flight originates in the CONUS, I just might be onboard my own uncomfortable metal...
Outside of needing to add furlough protection, what am I missing?
Of course, sooner or later, the adding of pilots to our seniority list will take a hit but that's inevitable whether we codeshare or not - no airline can grow unbounded. I'd much rather get $250 / hr flying my A321 for 20 years than getting $210 / hr for 10 until I can hold an A330 for $290 / hr and fly it for 10 years. The money's the same but my relative seniority on my aircraft is way different which I'm sure will affect my QoL. Also, there's no guarantee that F9 will ever purchase A330s. The one area of protection you mentioned that we don't have is furlough protection...I do think we will need that and I guess it would suck to go back on reserve because of codeshare. So, I DO see this as a potential threat but DON'T think it smart to take less money to ensure we own all the flying we can get our hands on. What if that flying never comes - I'm making less regardless. Routes and gates come and go for every airline.
If anything, this should be ammo for HIGHER rates at this point. If F9 wants to codeshare flying out to EVERY OTHER AIRLINE, then you need to pay me my guarantee at $300 / hr. That is what we should be negotiating - higher rates each time a codeshare is added and the ability to fly positive space with that codeshare. I'll fly my domestic routes w/ a smile on my face and when I take vacation, I will fly Volaris via positive space to one of the many destinations it serves. If the flight originates in the CONUS, I just might be onboard my own uncomfortable metal...
Outside of needing to add furlough protection, what am I missing?
Last edited by spaaks; 01-16-2018 at 09:14 PM.
01-16-2018, 09:07 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Office Chair
Posts: 637
I get that growth can be codeshared out. But, as I mentioned, that works both ways. There will be tickets that people purchase via Volaris from Guatemala to Seattle that utilize F9 crews/pilots (possibly on the whole trip). I'm not sure as to what the "balance" is in terms of utilization of us vs. them but either way, I'm still being being paid.
01-16-2018, 09:18 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 869
The "balance" is determined by whichever group will perform the flying the cheapest. If it's them, Frontier pilots don't fly south of the Rio Grande or Heaven's Waiting Room. That'd be done by those 80 (or more) shiny new Volaris Airbii. DEN-CUN-PUJ, LAX-MEX-SJO, MCO-MEX-PVR, etc, or whatever other landing rights they are able to secure.
01-16-2018, 10:28 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,441
The point you’re missing is that, with a codeshare as long as either the destination or departure city is not in the US, a codeshare airline can operate the flight. Usually the airline inside of the codeshare that operates cheaper gets the flying. I’m guessing you never worked at a regional
At the same time, I'm also not under the illusion that I work for an airline that gives two s*&ts about me or you or anyone else. How long does anyone REALLY expect Frontier to exist in the form of employing US pilots at US industry standard wages? There are literally a 100+ other airlines (both domestic and foreign) that already operate at cheaper rates than F9 does (even at our ridiculously low pay rates). The ability to codeshare has been in place for a while now and as mentioned previously, Obama and Trump aren't going to stop NAI - it's a wonder all of our labor hasn't been shared out already. Are there really regionals and/or foreign airlines positioned to do that much of F9 flying? If so, why haven't deals been struck already? For us, is the thought process now to close the barn door now that one cow has been let out? How much do you presume that will cost in terms of hourly rate? This contract never had scope - now all of the sudden we're worried about it since they actually decided to exercise that option? Are you really surprised at this - especially during negotiations? To that end, why would F9 allow ANY codeshare restrictions at this point?
I don't know the answers - neither do you. All I do know is that this is FRONTIER AIRLINES. This is NOT a long term destination airline. This is NOT some place to go to expect a 30+ year career and a place to hope your kids become a part of. This airline's fate was sealed the second Indigo signed the purchase agreement. I knew that when I got hired. I don't have the expectation of rainbows and unicorns dancing....I plan on staying only as long as it takes to get hired elsewhere and to get as much $ as I can while I'm here. This company does not care about the pilot group. So, in these negotiations, what we need as a pilot group is furlough protection as long as the cost of which is not too high. Otherwise, we need to be shooting for MAX pay. Many people talked about the Spirit AIP as some success story - do you still think so now w/ the looming Volaris codeshare deal? If the seniority list stagnates and concessionary contracts come as part of being codeshared out to the max, I will view that as an inevitable part of flying and we all have the distinct pleasure of picking the wrong airline - whether you were here before Indigo or not doesn't matter. We need to get our money NOW before we don't have the ability to get anything at all. This airline is an investment and the sooner we all realize that the smarter we will be about how we go about positioning ourselves in this and subsequent negotiations.
Last edited by dracir1; 01-16-2018 at 10:44 PM.
01-16-2018, 10:39 PM
#30
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Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 429
Many years under Franke and Biffle. Do not under estimate them. Whomever they can find that is the cheapest, they will. Don't think for one minute this isn't/wasn't a negotiation tactic. Your in a dog fight that's bigger than you realize and it's just getting going.
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