DrJekyll MrHyde

I heard the same from an NC member. Let the union do its job. They sure as heck aren’t trying to bargain for less to get a deal done early, but they are taking steps to get a deal done (i.e. get us into a cooling off). The last update indicated the MEC was meeting this week to discuss feedback from the NMB. I can’t imagine that wasn’t delayed at least a couple days due to the single day of government shutdown (it started at Midnight on Friday and ended before Tuesday morning); these government bureaucrats use any excuse they can to procrastinate. Maybe we’ll have an update by end of week.

DrJekyll MrHyde

We can’t be parked during the 30 day cooling off. We can even walk away “to cool off.” But it is generally a period of intense negotiations.

We’ve never seen anything but the Date of Signing rate pay proposals. We could always ratchet up the pay rates year-over-year for each successive year of the contract. And I would hope that we have some kind of protections built into this new contract to incentivize the company to no longer play the “drag it out for the discount” game when the next contract becomes amendable.

motorboatin

I don’t think you’ve been paying attention because this makes no sense. Back track? How do you even come up with those words? We are presently at $166 something and union is negotiating something in the $245 range, plus dc, etc. There is no back track there and a previous proposal is just that, a proposal. Talk to a rep and get yourself educated.

PowerMan

Your fear is unfounded, but I empathize with your concern. "We" haven't agreed to anything. One of the points I tried to make earlier is that a Negotiating Committee does its best to represent our expectations but occasionally they present an AIP or TA to their respective group that is off the mark. Those unacceptable agreements get voted down, the commitee evolves, and negotiations resume. While it will slow down the eventual ratification process, a TA can't be forced on you (we never agreed to binding arbitration).

It seems your concern is shared by others in our pilot group. It is understandable. My experience is that we hire a considerable number of pilots that have never seen the ugly process of contract negotiations (corporate, military, or otherwise). We can help them and ourselves by maintaining an open dialog regarding the process and the responsibilities of each involved in the process. Your reps will gladly address your concerns with far more insight than this board. It is really a union members' responsibility to seek out their input and to also, more importantly, to share your expectations. If the NC "ask" doesn't satisfy our collective expectations, then we share the responsibility for that breakdown in communications and will pay the price through further delays.

MCDUie

I’m not talking about our current pay rates, I’m talking about the original proposal. A large number of F9 pilots have stated on this forum that they expect a better deal than the Spirit AIP. The original proposal from our MEC (pay scale anyway) is already less than Spirits AIP. In our last mediated session ALPA agreed to reduce the overall cost by 80 million. So yes the words “back track” come into play or if you prefer “reverse course” to negotiate higher rates not lower in future sessions. This is my second airline and 3rd contract, I’m familiar with the process. I’ve never seen an MEC propose $245 and walk out with $260.

So to clarify, my concern is that we are either going to receive a TA well below our expectations, or that the company is going to call ALPA’s bluff on their last proposal and ALPA will have to back track and ask for more. The NMB could view that as being unreasonable. I hope I’m wrong.

dracir1

Never been on a NC but I would imagine...

There is a fairly hard # the NC wants in terms of a proposal. Let’s call it $100 million as a round hypothetical. That # is derived from the projected costs of straight salaries, scope, vacation, company paid benefits (travel, STD, LTD, health insurance, etc). Lots of these #s are somewhat dynamic as it’s hard to predict just how much the company will pay in something like employee travel benefits in any given year but there is still a price attached. The way the negotiation process should work is if the company wants to pay less in salary, they pay more elsewhere (to keep the overall compensation at the original $100 million).

Of course, the company wants to get that overall # ($100 million in this case) down as much as possible. So, without potentially getting into too much strategy I would expect our NC to still negotiate from whatever original # they came up with. Of course, that # needs to be one that’s fair for both sides - fair is determined by the NMB.

This is what I mean when I state I’m voting for a contract that doesn’t give up anything in terms of industry leading as an OVERALL contract. I’m fine with making a few dollars less of rate if my company paid retirement and other areas are tops or near it. If this is what you mean by back track, I don’t view it as such. It’s a negotiation, getting $245 may be better than $260 depending on the other sections that were agreed upon.

And, I post on here to remind folks of all that they gave up in the last contract that allowed Indigo to come in and make so much in the first place. We are working for indentured servitude wages now and this pilot group DESERVES industry leading. This is the best environment ever to get it - it’s such a prosperous time that we can get what we want and the company still make tons of money. This new contract will even help expand business faster. The company has already been officially cited as not having bargained in good faith. We are LONG overdue industry leading.

But, the company is still the company as is greedy. So, the only way to get our best contract is to keep that original ask (#) as high as possible. This is where our pilot group resolve will be challenged - perhaps the company will offer a contract that has $80 million overall but great pay rates (and we lose $20 million elsewhere like PBS or retirement or vacation). Will enough pilots vote yes to that?

I won’t, and I hope you won’t either.

Since I would be real surprised if the company agreed to anything close to industry leading overall any time before release, we need to be ready to speak to the company via that manner. I don’t think we’re gonna be told to take a deal because it’s fair by the NMB like NK. I think we’ll be allowed to duke this out to the finish. And I hope our original #, whatever it is, goes UP each day we’re released...

motorboatin

That’s my point when I say you need to educate yourself. The proposal was just that. A PROPOSAL. The only thing that’s set in stone are our current rates. Proposed rates mean jack. I don’t think that the NC changing their course now does any good, and the large number of pilots you mention that vent on this forum, do not represent a sanctioned and scientific polling platform that speaks for the entire Frontier pilot group. Rather, the NC use Spirit as a justification that what they asked for was more than appropriate. And, you’re too focused on the rate. If we get something in the neighborhood of what Spirit settles on, with NO PBS, do you not recognize the outcome of that and how it translates to a better annual income taking all factors into account?? All I’m saying is that the wise individual looks beyond just the rate as a metric for the deciding how good the deal is. I don’t think anyone rational believes that we’re going to come out the other side of this w/$260/hr on the date of ratification.

MCDUie

I’m not focused only on the hourly rate. You’re trying to put words in my mouth to justify your trolling. I was just using the proposed rates as a measuring stick since that’s all we have to go off of at the moment. No one has seen what’s in the Spirit AIP. I’m well aware of QOL items negotiated through work rules and soft time. I have 11 years in the industry and have been through the process probably more times than you. $260 is just an arbitrary number I used to attempt to explain that we’re negotiating in the wrong direction if we want something comprable or better than the Spirit AIP.

Voicing concerns about where we are in the negotiating process is the point of this thread, hence the title. Troll much? I admit I’m not an expert at the process and if you were you would be on the NC instead of trolling an APC thread. But by all means educate us.

motorboatin

That’s classic. Yep, I’m a troll you buffoon. Someone calls you out and you revert to the unoriginal troll accusation. I’m sure you’ve been around for 11 years and I’m sure you’ve probably been through this process more times than me. My question, were you this clueless during your previous experiences or have you simply back tracked in your own personal evolution?? Actually it looks more like back pedaling when I recall your previous posts. -Troll

MCDUie

Buffoon really??? Okay big guy