wt93205

Comical? This is not a joke. All I am saying is we are worth more. I know I am. I have 30 years left. Working at 40 bucks an hour less plus the lost retirement is not worth it to me to work under a TA like that. Then also knowing the next time in 2022 you will again be way behind. The problem I have with this TA is while it might be a solid agreement for you, in 4 years you will again be back in the same position. Doing the same thing. Rationalizing why it is again okay to work for so much less and that it is the best you can get. All you will be doing is kicking the can down the road and saying next time. Over the long term you will have lost so much money with this thinking.

I read an email where one guy said it is 30/hour in lost wages for a year or 70k I assume for Captains, if you turn it down to get another proposal. Would you rather have that or lock in this TA and in 2022 be paid 60/hour less then the rest, assuming others don't negotiate anything further, and just let the percentage increase each year happen. You will be stuck in a cycle making way less per year over and over, aka a true "discount" pilot. This is the best time to get it much closer to what the market is at. You are worth more. Next time might not be so good. Don't sell yourself short. So laugh if you must but I am not.

wt93205

Each to his own. However you will be lowering the pattern bargaining for us a F9. That is my concern. You will have established the Ultra Low Cost Pilot Rates. I would prefer to stay at F9 but I have a long ways to go and lost wages are a factor. You can see it as percentage gains but that is a horrible way to look at it. You are worth market rates. Flying an Airbus is not worth doing for less then everyone else. You will just lower the bar for the others who are in negotiations. As for Southwest, they actually treat you like a human, gives you a bonus when they make money, pay good, people respect you when you say who you work for, and sure they have some older planes but so what. They are getting new ones too. As long as they maintain the old ones until they do and pay you well who cares. As for pax, if you like flying trailer park trash so be it. Good for you. I am glad I don't think I should have to deal with more garbage for less money. Spirit will be a stepping stone after a year or two when the others rates are even higher and the hiring gets crazier. Especially as the regionals continue to increase pay. Less and less with need to go to Spirit as a stepping stone. They will just go direct. If you turn it down, in a year Spirit will be farther behind and have a much harder time getting pilots forcing the NMB to release you as they would be causing the company damage if they didn't. Then you can strike if needed to get to market rates like you deserve. You can bash me if you want, but I think we are all worth more then this. I actually am for you getting paid more! Hate me if you must!

Qotsaautopilot

You are right except it’s about $70/hr for many. One year delay means we need everything we just got plus $16 more and hour to break even and then we just pushed back our amendable date another year. So imo we need $30 MORE than this offer to make it worth it.

I just read the full text of your scope and it’s slightly worse than where Spirit is coming from. Your LTD is very similar but still just slightly worse than where we are coming from. Your retirement is a little better at first glance. All I can say is that we ARE worth more I just wouldnt want to wait and see how Franke plans to outsource you guys and I hope you don’t have a medical issue while you’re trying to get that extra 15/hr net assuming you were in our shoes. You are carrying a lot of risk there as we are. Maybe you get lucky and nothing happens while you fight for the ever so important pay rates. I hope we all get it all. This AIP litterally gave us everything we asked for except the top DC retirement at dos and legacy pay. I’m not going to have my family shoulder the risk on my medical for another year for a few extra bucks

wt93205

I hear you on this. Math doesn't add up though. If you take a 70 hour pay cut for another year it would take $17.50 hour more to make up that over the 4 years of the contract. Then you wouldn't be so far behind the next time. That is the whole point. Stay closer and TA's comes quicker. Anyway, I have seen this exact stuff happen at the regionals and know the better way is to hold out for better when the good times are good. Kicking the can down the road never works. You end up losing tons of money. As for the medical, that is a risk we all take from day one. I get your point though.

Qotsaautopilot

I used $70k over 5 years on 72hr guarantee. It’s beside the point. So if you have to to make $16-17/hr more a year from to make the exact same as offered today while pushing your amendable date back another year for the next negotiation why do it. It’s only worth it if you can get another $30/hr and that’s a big if.

The medical risk is a risk we all take but it’s a big risk and can be insured against but nearly impossible to buy a reasonable policy as an individual. Why? Because the risk is so high for the insurance company they need a group policy. None of us are invincible and we get emails every week asking us to donate sick time to guys we have out on disability. Most of them were not unhealthy. An accident playing sports, cancer, an ear issue, it can be anything.

Scope is big. Right now they could easily codeshare your growth out to Spirit or WOW or Norwegian. Franke will do it makes money. The current Spirit contract (Not AIP)protects current pilots from furlough but not growth. The AIP reigns that in. The frontier contact doesn’t even protect all current pilots. They could codeshare out existing pilots. These protections don’t come for free. If we pass on them now what’s to say they don’t move with plan B. Maybe they don’t have plan B but scope protections are cheap when you get them and very expensive when you don’t have them and they get exploited.

dracir1

Of course, the current Spirit scope is different than Frontier. As well as the pay scales, LTD, medical, etc. So, the offer we need is different. And, no matter how great the offer, unless it's industry LEADING in just about every sense, then as the industry expands (more gates, leases, routes, etc.), the contract becomes less relevant. And, every pilot group suffers from accepting less each time it occurs.

This is a big game of leapfrog. Holding out until you leap to the front will take an extreme amount of pilot unity (vote down all offers by a majority, get released for who knows how long, etc.). We all know this - there's nothing profound about these statements. The TRUE question isn't calculating the math of how much to be offered and when to make sure we make a few nickles more, but will each group have the cojones to hold out for something that is really worthwhile (and something the NMB agrees isn't too much to ask).

I, for one, believe F9 can do that. Why would we agree on anything else? With the current state of our contract, the treatment from Mgt, the cost of medical, scheduling, the # of grievances we have to file . . . quite frankly, we are so close to the bottom that holding out for something mediocre really doesn't make any sense. We are in the position that release until industry leading (or pretty darn close) is essentially the only option.

I wonder what NK thinks about their plight...perhaps we shall see very soon.

Super EZ E

WOW! That's a bold comment, no way you work for F9 your worth more. Maybe I missed it but the NMB point blank told our NC you will NOT be released for self help. ~42% pay increase is a record amount, that's how the NMB saw it. Thats how we ended up with "discount" pay in the new contract. We did pull another $15 million for signing bonus. Thanks NC. If/when NKS has 300+ aircraft maybe then we will have more leverage when negotiating. Fact is NMB held a gun to our heads, end of story. Fact is the NMB felt the company met its obligation and stopped us where we currently are with this AIP. Hope you guys do better but get ready for a bumpy ride. Being a betting man you'll most likely find yourself with "Discount" rates when you're done. With upgrades running 2.5 yrs junior Captains will be at almost $200/hr. Reality is going to kick you guys in the a$$ soon. The NMB is pulling the strings and will correct your attitude with a health dose of ICE till you come to the same conclusion as the NMB.

SFA320

I agree with you. It will take time but eventually Spirit
and Frontier will inch closer and closer to Legacy type pay. A 45% raise for anybody is huge, geeze it changes your life. With the NMB involved scoring 45% and great retirement is a win. I believe it helps us at F9. As our respective companies grow, we will see more and more improvements.

motorboatin

A 45% wage increase in one cycle in any business segment is almost unfathomable. All the birds chirping on here and FB simply don’t understand the economics. I’m no expert, but all of you “it’s not fair/I don’t care” crowd are just unbelievable. The Spirit MEC asked their membership to refrain from passing quick judgement based upon limited information. There will be full language for them to read in the near future and roadshows for all questions to be answered. Instead, people adopt this ‘sky is falling’ mentality. And then, a number of Frontier pilots are weighing in that based upon the heresay and bullet points that have been published, they would vote down the Spirit deal?? Does anyone else see how foolish that looks when it’s written out? I even saw one post on FB where a Frontier pilot said that this Spirit AIP “makes me sick!!” Are you freekin kidding me? This is one of the best things that’s happened to us during this whole process. Our closest competitor in the ULCC market just got a real deal with hundreds and hundreds of $million$ put on the table. Does it have some changes, of course, but on the whole it’s massivley better than where they are now. And, they just helped to solidify and justifiy our PATTERN! So, let’s quit sounding the alarms, demonstrating horrifying grammar, and chill the f#€k out till we have something we can vote on.

UNSUBSCRIBE

Nailed it!!!! Well said