Frontier Negotiations Discussion
01-01-2019, 06:41 AM
#4421
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 491
In terms of PBS and efficiency, I would think the placement of training and vacation before awards would be huge improvements in efficiency directly related to PBS.
Gone are the days of folks wiping out 50 hours of credit for a 2 day PT or one week of vacation.
Gone are the days of bidding conflicts during transition (sometimes with a week of vacation thrown in) to credit big hours for little actual flying.
As others have mentioned, I would hope the minimum average duty period and 3.5 : 1 trip rig would also drive the company to construct more productive pairings.
I would think “efficiency” should be considered as a ratio of actual flight time compared with pay credit. I.e. “soft credit.”
“Productivity”, in my mind, would be most accurately measured as TAFB divided by credit hours.
The company wants Efficiency and Pilots want Productivity. I think PBS does quite a bit to enhance Efficiency, but, by itself, not much to help Productivity.
Gone are the days of folks wiping out 50 hours of credit for a 2 day PT or one week of vacation.
Gone are the days of bidding conflicts during transition (sometimes with a week of vacation thrown in) to credit big hours for little actual flying.
As others have mentioned, I would hope the minimum average duty period and 3.5 : 1 trip rig would also drive the company to construct more productive pairings.
I would think “efficiency” should be considered as a ratio of actual flight time compared with pay credit. I.e. “soft credit.”
“Productivity”, in my mind, would be most accurately measured as TAFB divided by credit hours.
The company wants Efficiency and Pilots want Productivity. I think PBS does quite a bit to enhance Efficiency, but, by itself, not much to help Productivity.
01-01-2019, 07:54 AM
#4422
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 180
[QUOTE=OpenClimb;2734707]In terms of PBS and efficiency, I would think the placement of training and vacation before awards would be huge improvements in efficiency directly related to PBS.
Gone are the days of folks wiping out 50 hours of credit for a 2 day PT or one week of vacation.
Gone are the days of bidding conflicts during transition (sometimes with a week of vacation thrown in) to credit big hours for little actual flying.
Pref bid helps with transition, No Doubt! The placement of training and vacation on schedules prior to the award does help efficiencies as well, however when you have 5 hours credit/day and an accrual like we have for vacation coupled with 4.5 hours/day for training, those efficiencies are mitigated. The roadshow data presented showed that the average pilot credit for vacation was 4.9 hours per day. So the fact is, that everyone does not always knock out 50 or 60 hours for a week of vacation. Nor does Everyone knock out 50+ hours for training.
Emotionally, I think a lot of pilots believe they knock out 50-60 hours for every vacation period they have, but that simply is not the case. And that's not napkin math, it's real data that's been crunched and analyzed. So don't take offense to that, it's just fact.
So pref-bidding will help for transition and account for known absences prior to the schedule build, but the key is to have high credit for those known absences...and that's what they were able to negotiate and it's industry leading.
It's disconcerting and tough to hear people on here still saying that we got robbed and that the TA is crap. If you want to sit there and measure yourself by the deal "XXX" pilot group got, that's just not a constructive mindset. The rational pilot looks at where we are now...topped out at $167/hour, 1/2 pay deadheads, 3.75 rig, NO min day of any sort, 4 hours for training, reassignment language that begs for disputes, a grievance process that sets us up for failure, $0 in your pocket for LOA67, reserves that will rarely if ever break guarantee, archaic retirement, $5k month LTD, etc, etc.
Compare that to $245/hour, full-pay deadheads, 3.5 rig, 5hrs guarantee per duty period, 4.5 hrs training, reassignment aligned with norms of the industry and severe punitive awards to pilots if footprint is violated, a streamlined grievance process, reserves allowed to pick up extra flying to exceed guarantee, much improved retirement including cash over the cap, $8k month LTD, and $75M distributed amongst pilot group to settle the past 2 1/2 years of Co nonsense. Plus maintaining drop/swap (which NO ONE else has like ours), trip splitting (Which NO other pilot group can do), 25% over 82, etc.
It's all about the improvements made. Wanna compare yourself to Delta, United, JetBlue on an hourly rate based analysis? You're not going to be happy...but compare yourself to one of those carriers now!! We ARE the current laughing stock! Don't take your work rules for granted and the power they have on the hourly rate.
This TA is a good deal. The improvements to our W2s will be staggering and the story that pilots all become reservists is just really poor understanding and panic based on fear of change. PBS will not impact pairings by one bit. The optimizer runs that the NC did with the company showed that the network dictates very little change takes place because of DH, min-day, or rig. But if there are changes, they will enhance productivity...Not decrease it! Call one of those guys and ask them to share the optimizer run info with you, it's very interesting.
I wish all a Happy New Year and hope the best for every Frontier Pilot in 2019.
Gone are the days of folks wiping out 50 hours of credit for a 2 day PT or one week of vacation.
Gone are the days of bidding conflicts during transition (sometimes with a week of vacation thrown in) to credit big hours for little actual flying.
Pref bid helps with transition, No Doubt! The placement of training and vacation on schedules prior to the award does help efficiencies as well, however when you have 5 hours credit/day and an accrual like we have for vacation coupled with 4.5 hours/day for training, those efficiencies are mitigated. The roadshow data presented showed that the average pilot credit for vacation was 4.9 hours per day. So the fact is, that everyone does not always knock out 50 or 60 hours for a week of vacation. Nor does Everyone knock out 50+ hours for training.
Emotionally, I think a lot of pilots believe they knock out 50-60 hours for every vacation period they have, but that simply is not the case. And that's not napkin math, it's real data that's been crunched and analyzed. So don't take offense to that, it's just fact.
So pref-bidding will help for transition and account for known absences prior to the schedule build, but the key is to have high credit for those known absences...and that's what they were able to negotiate and it's industry leading.
It's disconcerting and tough to hear people on here still saying that we got robbed and that the TA is crap. If you want to sit there and measure yourself by the deal "XXX" pilot group got, that's just not a constructive mindset. The rational pilot looks at where we are now...topped out at $167/hour, 1/2 pay deadheads, 3.75 rig, NO min day of any sort, 4 hours for training, reassignment language that begs for disputes, a grievance process that sets us up for failure, $0 in your pocket for LOA67, reserves that will rarely if ever break guarantee, archaic retirement, $5k month LTD, etc, etc.
Compare that to $245/hour, full-pay deadheads, 3.5 rig, 5hrs guarantee per duty period, 4.5 hrs training, reassignment aligned with norms of the industry and severe punitive awards to pilots if footprint is violated, a streamlined grievance process, reserves allowed to pick up extra flying to exceed guarantee, much improved retirement including cash over the cap, $8k month LTD, and $75M distributed amongst pilot group to settle the past 2 1/2 years of Co nonsense. Plus maintaining drop/swap (which NO ONE else has like ours), trip splitting (Which NO other pilot group can do), 25% over 82, etc.
It's all about the improvements made. Wanna compare yourself to Delta, United, JetBlue on an hourly rate based analysis? You're not going to be happy...but compare yourself to one of those carriers now!! We ARE the current laughing stock! Don't take your work rules for granted and the power they have on the hourly rate.
This TA is a good deal. The improvements to our W2s will be staggering and the story that pilots all become reservists is just really poor understanding and panic based on fear of change. PBS will not impact pairings by one bit. The optimizer runs that the NC did with the company showed that the network dictates very little change takes place because of DH, min-day, or rig. But if there are changes, they will enhance productivity...Not decrease it! Call one of those guys and ask them to share the optimizer run info with you, it's very interesting.
I wish all a Happy New Year and hope the best for every Frontier Pilot in 2019.
01-01-2019, 08:18 AM
#4423
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 629
[QUOTE=motorboatin;2734751]
This must be a joke. Another clear sign of battle fatigue. Another this is good enough voter. Forget about what your peers are doing.
“reassignment aligned with norms of the industry and severe punitive awards to pilots if footprint is violated”
What severe punitive awards?
There’s nothing aligned with the norms of the industry on reassignment pay.
Apparently you haven’t read the article just published yesterday by Bloomberg on how DAL and AA are looking to rid themselves of their reassignment language which actually does reward them financially vs ours. The pilots are being taking advantage of with the reassignment policies.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/...edule-changes/
In terms of PBS and efficiency, I would think the placement of training and vacation before awards would be huge improvements in efficiency directly related to PBS.
Gone are the days of folks wiping out 50 hours of credit for a 2 day PT or one week of vacation.
Gone are the days of bidding conflicts during transition (sometimes with a week of vacation thrown in) to credit big hours for little actual flying.
Pref bid helps with transition, No Doubt! The placement of training and vacation on schedules prior to the award does help efficiencies as well, however when you have 5 hours credit/day and an accrual like we have for vacation coupled with 4.5 hours/day for training, those efficiencies are mitigated. The roadshow data presented showed that the average pilot credit for vacation was 4.9 hours per day. So the fact is, that everyone does not always knock out 50 or 60 hours for a week of vacation. Nor does Everyone knock out 50+ hours for training.
Emotionally, I think a lot of pilots believe they knock out 50-60 hours for every vacation period they have, but that simply is not the case. And that's not napkin math, it's real data that's been crunched and analyzed. So don't take offense to that, it's just fact.
So pref-bidding will help for transition and account for known absences prior to the schedule build, but the key is to have high credit for those known absences...and that's what they were able to negotiate and it's industry leading.
It's disconcerting and tough to hear people on here still saying that we got robbed and that the TA is crap. If you want to sit there and measure yourself by the deal "XXX" pilot group got, that's just not a constructive mindset. The rational pilot looks at where we are now...topped out at $167/hour, 1/2 pay deadheads, 3.75 rig, NO min day of any sort, 4 hours for training, reassignment language that begs for disputes, a grievance process that sets us up for failure, $0 in your pocket for LOA67, reserves that will rarely if ever break guarantee, archaic retirement, $5k month LTD, etc, etc.
Compare that to $245/hour, full-pay deadheads, 3.5 rig, 5hrs guarantee per duty period, 4.5 hrs training, reassignment aligned with norms of the industry and severe punitive awards to pilots if footprint is violated, a streamlined grievance process, reserves allowed to pick up extra flying to exceed guarantee, much improved retirement including cash over the cap, $8k month LTD, and $75M distributed amongst pilot group to settle the past 2 1/2 years of Co nonsense. Plus maintaining drop/swap (which NO ONE else has like ours), trip splitting (Which NO other pilot group can do), 25% over 82, etc.
It's all about the improvements made. Wanna compare yourself to Delta, United, JetBlue on an hourly rate based analysis? You're not going to be happy...but compare yourself to one of those carriers now!! We ARE the current laughing stock! Don't take your work rules for granted and the power they have on the hourly rate.
This TA is a good deal. The improvements to our W2s will be staggering and the story that pilots all become reservists is just really poor understanding and panic based on fear of change. PBS will not impact pairings by one bit. The optimizer runs that the NC did with the company showed that the network dictates very little change takes place because of DH, min-day, or rig. But if there are changes, they will enhance productivity...Not decrease it! Call one of those guys and ask them to share the optimizer run info with you, it's very interesting.
I wish all a Happy New Year and hope the best for every Frontier Pilot in 2019.
Gone are the days of folks wiping out 50 hours of credit for a 2 day PT or one week of vacation.
Gone are the days of bidding conflicts during transition (sometimes with a week of vacation thrown in) to credit big hours for little actual flying.
Pref bid helps with transition, No Doubt! The placement of training and vacation on schedules prior to the award does help efficiencies as well, however when you have 5 hours credit/day and an accrual like we have for vacation coupled with 4.5 hours/day for training, those efficiencies are mitigated. The roadshow data presented showed that the average pilot credit for vacation was 4.9 hours per day. So the fact is, that everyone does not always knock out 50 or 60 hours for a week of vacation. Nor does Everyone knock out 50+ hours for training.
Emotionally, I think a lot of pilots believe they knock out 50-60 hours for every vacation period they have, but that simply is not the case. And that's not napkin math, it's real data that's been crunched and analyzed. So don't take offense to that, it's just fact.
So pref-bidding will help for transition and account for known absences prior to the schedule build, but the key is to have high credit for those known absences...and that's what they were able to negotiate and it's industry leading.
It's disconcerting and tough to hear people on here still saying that we got robbed and that the TA is crap. If you want to sit there and measure yourself by the deal "XXX" pilot group got, that's just not a constructive mindset. The rational pilot looks at where we are now...topped out at $167/hour, 1/2 pay deadheads, 3.75 rig, NO min day of any sort, 4 hours for training, reassignment language that begs for disputes, a grievance process that sets us up for failure, $0 in your pocket for LOA67, reserves that will rarely if ever break guarantee, archaic retirement, $5k month LTD, etc, etc.
Compare that to $245/hour, full-pay deadheads, 3.5 rig, 5hrs guarantee per duty period, 4.5 hrs training, reassignment aligned with norms of the industry and severe punitive awards to pilots if footprint is violated, a streamlined grievance process, reserves allowed to pick up extra flying to exceed guarantee, much improved retirement including cash over the cap, $8k month LTD, and $75M distributed amongst pilot group to settle the past 2 1/2 years of Co nonsense. Plus maintaining drop/swap (which NO ONE else has like ours), trip splitting (Which NO other pilot group can do), 25% over 82, etc.
It's all about the improvements made. Wanna compare yourself to Delta, United, JetBlue on an hourly rate based analysis? You're not going to be happy...but compare yourself to one of those carriers now!! We ARE the current laughing stock! Don't take your work rules for granted and the power they have on the hourly rate.
This TA is a good deal. The improvements to our W2s will be staggering and the story that pilots all become reservists is just really poor understanding and panic based on fear of change. PBS will not impact pairings by one bit. The optimizer runs that the NC did with the company showed that the network dictates very little change takes place because of DH, min-day, or rig. But if there are changes, they will enhance productivity...Not decrease it! Call one of those guys and ask them to share the optimizer run info with you, it's very interesting.
I wish all a Happy New Year and hope the best for every Frontier Pilot in 2019.
“reassignment aligned with norms of the industry and severe punitive awards to pilots if footprint is violated”
What severe punitive awards?
There’s nothing aligned with the norms of the industry on reassignment pay.
Apparently you haven’t read the article just published yesterday by Bloomberg on how DAL and AA are looking to rid themselves of their reassignment language which actually does reward them financially vs ours. The pilots are being taking advantage of with the reassignment policies.
https://www.staradvertiser.com/2018/...edule-changes/
01-01-2019, 08:29 AM
#4424
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 234
I am not being disingenuous at all. I am not bragging about anything. There were positive changes made in all of the areas that I listed...some quite smaller than others ie per diem. In other areas the increase is quite significant ie rates and retirement.
I know it is easy to say we currently get 11% and we are going to 12%...that sucks, but that is far from the case in practice.
The current average contribution the company makes to each pilot is 8.4%. Obviously some get more and some get less.
The real problem with the current system are the IRS caps that directly affect the company 401k match. Under current book and the 2019 IRS limits, once a pilot reaches $190k the company will no longer be required to make a 401k match. At the new rates more than 50% of the pilots potentially run into this problem.
I will make roughly $295000 next year. Under the new book that will mean $33600 company contribution to my retirement account and $1800 in cash over cap for a total of $35400.
Under the current book if I made $295000(which would require just shy of 1800 hours of credit) I would receive $26300 ($16800 DC and $9500 401k match) company contribution to my retirement account and no cash over cap. That means I receive an additional $9100 under the new book than current(and that is assuming the same income, which is not likely due to current vs TA rates). That is a little over a 27% increase.
In addition we get an additional point per year for the next 3 years, bringing us to 15% non elective effective 2022. I realize we all want 15% DOS, but clearly retirement under the new book is significantly better.
As far as medical goes, AYKM? We have NO MEDICAL LANGUAGE in the current book. Than is not an exaggeration. The current book says the company will provide health and welfare benefits. That is it. They could charge us 100% of the costs, they could raise the deductibles and max out of pocket to anything they want. The medical section is one of THE MOST IMPROVED sections in the TA.
I know that you have already voted no, and if you were allowed, would vote no 1000 times more, but it is truly unfortunate that you and the other handful of misinformed no voters continue to come on here and say things about the TA that are completely untrue. As I have said before, there are many things I like to see in the new TA that are not there, but to say that this TA is not significantly better than what we have, to say that it doesn't bring us into the pattern, to say that it is garbage, to say that all pilots will be on reserve, to say that we lost our work rules, etc is just wrong, and for the few people that come on here for real information regarding the TA (don't know why anybody does, but apparently some do), you are providing them with a tremendous disservice.
Last edited by monkeybrains; 01-01-2019 at 08:45 AM.
01-01-2019, 09:05 AM
#4425
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,490
For me personally, as a mid pay scale FO, my retirement contributions will increase 60% if this TA passes.
I am an aggressive saver towards my 401k. I currently save 14%. If I maintain that, which I will, my total 401K contributions go from 19,500 to 32,500 while my take home pay goes up about 40 grand. For the first time in my life, I will max out my personal 401k contributions.
I'm satisfied with the improvement to my retirement contributions. I'm voting yes. I thank the NC for the dramatic improvement to my compensation this provides me. And the folks who have nothing better to do but b*tch on these forums, you will enjoy the same benefits. I believe this TA will pass, and we will all be much better off for it.
I had the opportunity to speak to a couple the other night who are both Doctors. We discussed career earnings at length. It was eye opening to me. Many Doctors make less than airline pilots, took on way way more debt to get there and pay huge malpractice insurance fees. After talking with them, I am confident that I will make more money as a Frontier pilot than they will as Drs.
I am an aggressive saver towards my 401k. I currently save 14%. If I maintain that, which I will, my total 401K contributions go from 19,500 to 32,500 while my take home pay goes up about 40 grand. For the first time in my life, I will max out my personal 401k contributions.
I'm satisfied with the improvement to my retirement contributions. I'm voting yes. I thank the NC for the dramatic improvement to my compensation this provides me. And the folks who have nothing better to do but b*tch on these forums, you will enjoy the same benefits. I believe this TA will pass, and we will all be much better off for it.
I had the opportunity to speak to a couple the other night who are both Doctors. We discussed career earnings at length. It was eye opening to me. Many Doctors make less than airline pilots, took on way way more debt to get there and pay huge malpractice insurance fees. After talking with them, I am confident that I will make more money as a Frontier pilot than they will as Drs.
01-01-2019, 09:26 AM
#4426
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 629
For me personally, as a mid pay scale FO, my retirement contributions will increase 60% if this TA passes.
I am an aggressive saver towards my 401k. I currently save 14%. If I maintain that, which I will, my total 401K contributions go from 19,500 to 32,500 while my take home pay goes up about 40 grand. For the first time in my life, I will max out my personal 401k contributions.
I'm satisfied with the improvement to my retirement contributions. I'm voting yes. I thank the NC for the dramatic improvement to my compensation this provides me. And the folks who have nothing better to do but b*tch on these forums, you will enjoy the same benefits. I believe this TA will pass, and we will all be much better off for it.
I had the opportunity to speak to a couple the other night who are both Doctors. We discussed career earnings at length. It was eye opening to me. Many Doctors make less than airline pilots, took on way way more debt to get there and pay huge malpractice insurance fees. After talking with them, I am confident that I will make more money as a Frontier pilot than they will as Drs.
I am an aggressive saver towards my 401k. I currently save 14%. If I maintain that, which I will, my total 401K contributions go from 19,500 to 32,500 while my take home pay goes up about 40 grand. For the first time in my life, I will max out my personal 401k contributions.
I'm satisfied with the improvement to my retirement contributions. I'm voting yes. I thank the NC for the dramatic improvement to my compensation this provides me. And the folks who have nothing better to do but b*tch on these forums, you will enjoy the same benefits. I believe this TA will pass, and we will all be much better off for it.
I had the opportunity to speak to a couple the other night who are both Doctors. We discussed career earnings at length. It was eye opening to me. Many Doctors make less than airline pilots, took on way way more debt to get there and pay huge malpractice insurance fees. After talking with them, I am confident that I will make more money as a Frontier pilot than they will as Drs.
Doctors can also leave their jobs and get paid commensurate their experience. You try that. That’s why these contracts are a big deal.
God forbid your health suffers a hiccup and loose your medical. You’ll be wishing you held out for own occupation. Doctors don’t need a 1st Class Medical to practice.
01-01-2019, 09:28 AM
#4427
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
[QUOTE=motorboatin;2734751]
This TA is a good deal. The improvements to our W2s will be staggering and the story that pilots all become reservists is just really poor understanding and panic based on fear of change. PBS will not impact pairings by one bit. The optimizer runs that the NC did with the company showed that the network dictates very little change takes place because of DH, min-day, or rig. But if there are changes, they will enhance productivity...Not decrease it! Call one of those guys and ask them to share the optimizer run info with you, it's very interesting.
I wish all a Happy New Year and hope the best for every Frontier Pilot in 2019.
Ok, it’s amazing to me some people’s perspective...
If the company came into negotiations and offered a $10 increase on all of our current rates but then told us the only way we could have that extra $10 would be to accept PBS. Would this be a good TA then? If not, what if it was $20? $50? What if it was B6 rates? Or Delta +1? When does a TA go from bad, to average to good? What are the key indicators? What rates make it good?
Nobody is stating that the wage rate isn’t an improvement. The debate is about whether it is ENOUGH given giving up positive phone contact language, PBS and the gaining unlimited reassignment language.
The wage increase puts us at 2nd to last just barely above Allegiant and behind Spirit. Think about that. We got a raise that brought us to 2nd from last behind about 7 other airlines. And every single one of those other airlines, including Allegiant, are scheduled to begin their next round of negotiations before we do.
Of course, you can work you butt off and fly 85+ hours and get more money. You can do that at all the other ones too. The 125% above 82 hours doesn’t raise the overall effective wage that much.
What is lost in translation is that the days of crediting 25-50% more than flying are going to be significantly diminished with PBS.
Anyone who says this TA is good is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Their ability to delineate good from average and poor is diminished due to being below poor for so long.
As it was mentioned prior, you can give a starving man bread and water and he will gladly accept and consume but it doesn’t mean he’s nourished...
This TA is a good deal. The improvements to our W2s will be staggering and the story that pilots all become reservists is just really poor understanding and panic based on fear of change. PBS will not impact pairings by one bit. The optimizer runs that the NC did with the company showed that the network dictates very little change takes place because of DH, min-day, or rig. But if there are changes, they will enhance productivity...Not decrease it! Call one of those guys and ask them to share the optimizer run info with you, it's very interesting.
I wish all a Happy New Year and hope the best for every Frontier Pilot in 2019.
If the company came into negotiations and offered a $10 increase on all of our current rates but then told us the only way we could have that extra $10 would be to accept PBS. Would this be a good TA then? If not, what if it was $20? $50? What if it was B6 rates? Or Delta +1? When does a TA go from bad, to average to good? What are the key indicators? What rates make it good?
Nobody is stating that the wage rate isn’t an improvement. The debate is about whether it is ENOUGH given giving up positive phone contact language, PBS and the gaining unlimited reassignment language.
The wage increase puts us at 2nd to last just barely above Allegiant and behind Spirit. Think about that. We got a raise that brought us to 2nd from last behind about 7 other airlines. And every single one of those other airlines, including Allegiant, are scheduled to begin their next round of negotiations before we do.
Of course, you can work you butt off and fly 85+ hours and get more money. You can do that at all the other ones too. The 125% above 82 hours doesn’t raise the overall effective wage that much.
What is lost in translation is that the days of crediting 25-50% more than flying are going to be significantly diminished with PBS.
Anyone who says this TA is good is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Their ability to delineate good from average and poor is diminished due to being below poor for so long.
As it was mentioned prior, you can give a starving man bread and water and he will gladly accept and consume but it doesn’t mean he’s nourished...
Last edited by dracir1; 01-01-2019 at 09:41 AM.
01-01-2019, 09:41 AM
#4428
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Position: A320
Posts: 241
Some of us newbies held out hope that the core of the F9 pilot group, the same poor souls who gave up their “good life” to the likes of Potter, Bedford, and now Indigo, would summon the gumption to break the cycle....”Stockholm Syndrome” that you reference.....in this negotiation.
Apparently not meant to be. Perhaps in 2023, but most likely never.
Happy new year, all!
Apparently not meant to be. Perhaps in 2023, but most likely never.
Happy new year, all!
01-01-2019, 10:14 AM
#4429
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 234
dracir1
[QUOTE=dracir1;2734800][QUOTE=motorboatin;2734751]
Ok, it’s amazing to me some people’s perspective...
If the company came into negotiations and offered a $10 increase on all of our current rates but then told us the only way we could have that extra $10 would be to accept PBS. Would this be a good TA then? If not, what if it was $20? $50? What if it was B6 rates? Or Delta +1? When does a TA go from bad, to average to good? What are the key indicators? What rates make it good?
What is your point? this isnt what happened.
Nobody is stating that the wage rate isn’t an improvement. The debate is about whether it is ENOUGH given giving up positive phone contact language, PBS and the gaining unlimited reassignment language.
We didnt give up anything. The company attempts to contact pilots today. There are pilots that have refused to contact the company after a cancellation and they were docked pay, they didnt get in trouble. If they try to contact you during a sit, just like today, you cn call back or not, if they really want to get in touch with you they will remove you from the release and you will call them or not. It is current practice. There is no significant change.
The reassignment language is the exact same as today. Today they can reassign you any time they want, are you going to argue "schedule integrity" that is an arbitration we will lose. This is the EXACT practice as today, except now there is a limit to how many legs you can do if you get reassigned outside the footprint, there is NO hard limit today, In the TA there is 5 hours of pay IN ADDITION to the value of the sequence plus possible additional vacation days( not the practice today). There is NO MORE JA in the new TA, today the company can JA you to fly on your day off, or outside the footprint of your sequence.
The wage increase puts us at 2nd to last just barely above Allegiant and behind Spirit. Think about that. We got a raise that brought us to 2nd from last behind about 7 other airlines. And every single one of those other airlines, including Allegiant, are scheduled to begin their next round of negotiations before we do.
The Rates are higher than Spirit by 1%. Not a huge difference, but once again, what your saying is false. Spirit 321 override is not their guaranteed rate. Granted if they get rid of all 320s and only fly 321s their rate will be 10% higher than book, but if they get rid of 321s or more likely get fewer 321s than 320s as a % of block hours going forward, the 321 override will go down, which means instead of 1.8 or 1.9% override, it could be 1.5 or 1.0 or .75%... Point is, the pilots have no control of the value of the override.
Of course, you can work you butt off and fly 85+ hours and get more money. You can do that at all the other ones too. The 125% above 82 hours doesn’t raise the overall effective wage that much.
Work your but off? Yes you can. I personally don't and year after year credit north of 1200 hours. I ALWAYS credit at least 2 hours for each hour I fly. And, I didn't take any VJS/JAs over the summer. That was a personal decision that I made. 125% over 82 equates to $12/ hour for me bringing my average effective rate for the year to $257.
What is lost in translation is that the days of crediting 25-50% more than flying are going to be significantly diminished with PBS.
Wrong. Due to our marketing system, the Optimizer will not be able to make large changes to the pairing build. If they want to pay less rig, it will mean more 100% DHs to get pilots back to domicile earlier. If they want to pay less 100% DH it will mean more rig due to longer TAFB. They cant magically make pairings more efficient. What PBS does is let you choose the same crappy pairings we have today(albeit more valuable due to new rig, DH and AMDP pay leading to more days off) instead of having the lines pre-built for you and forcing you to choose from them.
Anyone who says this TA is good is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Their ability to delineate good from average and poor is diminished due to being below poor for so long.
Your rhetoric is so tedious. You clearly don't have a true grasp of what is in the current book and what is in the TA. Although why would you? You spend your life on APC, regurgitating the same false rhetoric. I am sorry if that came across as obnoxious, as that was not my intent. My point is that you truly either don't understand what is in the current book and TA or you dont care. I hope it is the former, because if it is, I implore you to carefully compare the current book and the TA, and hopefully you will then understand how significant of an increase the new TA is.
As it was mentioned prior, you can give a starving man bread and water and he will gladly accept and consume but it doesn’t mean he’s nourished...
More nonsense. You can give a starving man a 100% increase over 5 years, you can give a man a 53% avg hourly increase DOS, you can give a man $75 million in signing bonus and the list goes on and on. That isn't bread and water. That is life changing money for this pilot group. If this TA doesn't "nourish" you, well, then you will never be nourished. Just like the Spirit, and Jet Blue and United and Delta and Fedex pilots that were bit(hing that their TAs were also $hit.
Maybe instead of bread and water you should try a heaping portion of reality, because that is exactly what the doctor ordered.
[QUOTE=dracir1;2734800][QUOTE=motorboatin;2734751]
Ok, it’s amazing to me some people’s perspective...
If the company came into negotiations and offered a $10 increase on all of our current rates but then told us the only way we could have that extra $10 would be to accept PBS. Would this be a good TA then? If not, what if it was $20? $50? What if it was B6 rates? Or Delta +1? When does a TA go from bad, to average to good? What are the key indicators? What rates make it good?
What is your point? this isnt what happened.
Nobody is stating that the wage rate isn’t an improvement. The debate is about whether it is ENOUGH given giving up positive phone contact language, PBS and the gaining unlimited reassignment language.
We didnt give up anything. The company attempts to contact pilots today. There are pilots that have refused to contact the company after a cancellation and they were docked pay, they didnt get in trouble. If they try to contact you during a sit, just like today, you cn call back or not, if they really want to get in touch with you they will remove you from the release and you will call them or not. It is current practice. There is no significant change.
The reassignment language is the exact same as today. Today they can reassign you any time they want, are you going to argue "schedule integrity" that is an arbitration we will lose. This is the EXACT practice as today, except now there is a limit to how many legs you can do if you get reassigned outside the footprint, there is NO hard limit today, In the TA there is 5 hours of pay IN ADDITION to the value of the sequence plus possible additional vacation days( not the practice today). There is NO MORE JA in the new TA, today the company can JA you to fly on your day off, or outside the footprint of your sequence.
The wage increase puts us at 2nd to last just barely above Allegiant and behind Spirit. Think about that. We got a raise that brought us to 2nd from last behind about 7 other airlines. And every single one of those other airlines, including Allegiant, are scheduled to begin their next round of negotiations before we do.
The Rates are higher than Spirit by 1%. Not a huge difference, but once again, what your saying is false. Spirit 321 override is not their guaranteed rate. Granted if they get rid of all 320s and only fly 321s their rate will be 10% higher than book, but if they get rid of 321s or more likely get fewer 321s than 320s as a % of block hours going forward, the 321 override will go down, which means instead of 1.8 or 1.9% override, it could be 1.5 or 1.0 or .75%... Point is, the pilots have no control of the value of the override.
Of course, you can work you butt off and fly 85+ hours and get more money. You can do that at all the other ones too. The 125% above 82 hours doesn’t raise the overall effective wage that much.
Work your but off? Yes you can. I personally don't and year after year credit north of 1200 hours. I ALWAYS credit at least 2 hours for each hour I fly. And, I didn't take any VJS/JAs over the summer. That was a personal decision that I made. 125% over 82 equates to $12/ hour for me bringing my average effective rate for the year to $257.
What is lost in translation is that the days of crediting 25-50% more than flying are going to be significantly diminished with PBS.
Wrong. Due to our marketing system, the Optimizer will not be able to make large changes to the pairing build. If they want to pay less rig, it will mean more 100% DHs to get pilots back to domicile earlier. If they want to pay less 100% DH it will mean more rig due to longer TAFB. They cant magically make pairings more efficient. What PBS does is let you choose the same crappy pairings we have today(albeit more valuable due to new rig, DH and AMDP pay leading to more days off) instead of having the lines pre-built for you and forcing you to choose from them.
Anyone who says this TA is good is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Their ability to delineate good from average and poor is diminished due to being below poor for so long.
Your rhetoric is so tedious. You clearly don't have a true grasp of what is in the current book and what is in the TA. Although why would you? You spend your life on APC, regurgitating the same false rhetoric. I am sorry if that came across as obnoxious, as that was not my intent. My point is that you truly either don't understand what is in the current book and TA or you dont care. I hope it is the former, because if it is, I implore you to carefully compare the current book and the TA, and hopefully you will then understand how significant of an increase the new TA is.
As it was mentioned prior, you can give a starving man bread and water and he will gladly accept and consume but it doesn’t mean he’s nourished...
More nonsense. You can give a starving man a 100% increase over 5 years, you can give a man a 53% avg hourly increase DOS, you can give a man $75 million in signing bonus and the list goes on and on. That isn't bread and water. That is life changing money for this pilot group. If this TA doesn't "nourish" you, well, then you will never be nourished. Just like the Spirit, and Jet Blue and United and Delta and Fedex pilots that were bit(hing that their TAs were also $hit.
Maybe instead of bread and water you should try a heaping portion of reality, because that is exactly what the doctor ordered.
01-01-2019, 10:23 AM
#4430
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
[QUOTE=monkeybrains;2734825]dracir1
[QUOTE=dracir1;2734800]
Ok, it’s amazing to me some people’s perspective...
If the company came into negotiations and offered a $10 increase on all of our current rates but then told us the only way we could have that extra $10 would be to accept PBS. Would this be a good TA then? If not, what if it was $20? $50? What if it was B6 rates? Or Delta +1? When does a TA go from bad, to average to good? What are the key indicators? What rates make it good?
What is your point? this isnt what happened.
Nobody is stating that the wage rate isn’t an improvement. The debate is about whether it is ENOUGH given giving up positive phone contact language, PBS and the gaining unlimited reassignment language.
We didnt give up anything. The company attempts to contact pilots today. There are pilots that have refused to contact the company after a cancellation and they were docked pay, they didnt get in trouble. If they try to contact you during a sit, just like today, you cn call back or not, if they really want to get in touch with you they will remove you from the release and you will call them or not. It is current practice. There is no significant change.
The reassignment language is the exact same as today. Today they can reassign you any time they want, are you going to argue "schedule integrity" that is an arbitration we will lose. This is the EXACT practice as today, except now there is a limit to how many legs you can do if you get reassigned outside the footprint, there is NO hard limit today, and there is 5 hours of pay IN ADDITION to the value of the sequence( not the practice today). There is NO MORE JA in the new TA, today the company JA you to fly on your day off, or outside the footprint of your sequence.
The wage increase puts us at 2nd to last just barely above Allegiant and behind Spirit. Think about that. We got a raise that brought us to 2nd from last behind about 7 other airlines. And every single one of those other airlines, including Allegiant, are scheduled to begin their next round of negotiations before we do.
The Rates are higher than Sprirt by 1%. Not a huge difference, but once again, what your saying is false. Spirit 321 override is not their guaranteed rate. Granted if they get rid of all 320s their rate will be 10% higher than book, but if they get rid of 321s or more likely get fewer 321s than 320s as a % of block hours going forward, the 321 override will go down, which means instead of 1.8 or 1.9% override, it could be 1.5 or 1.0 or .75%... Point is, the pilots have no control of the value of the override.
Of course, you can work you butt off and fly 85+ hours and get more money. You can do that at all the other ones too. The 125% above 82 hours doesn’t raise the overall effective wage that much.
Work your but off? Yes you can. I personally dont and year after year credit north of 1200 hours. I ALWAYS credit at least 2 hours for each hour I fly. And, I didnt take any VJS/JAs over the summer. That was a personal decision that I made. 125% over 82 equates to $12/ hour for me bringing my average effective rate for the year to $257.
What is lost in translation is that the days of crediting 25-50% more than flying are going to be significantly diminished with PBS.
Wrong. Due to our marketing system, the Optimizer will not be able to make large changes to the pairing build. If they want to pay less rig, it will mean more 100% DHs to get pilots back to domicile. If they want to pay less 100% DH it will mean more rig due to longer TAFB. They cant magically make pairings more efficient. What PBS does is let you choose the same crappy pairings we have today(albiet more valuable due to new rig, DH and AMDP pay leading to more days off) instead of having the lines prebuilt for you and forcing you to choose from them.
Anyone who says this TA is good is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Their ability to delineate good from average and poor is diminished due to being below poor for so long.
Your rhetoric is so tedious. You clearly dont have a true grasp of what is in the current book and what is in the TA. Although why would you? You spend your life on APC, regurgitating the same false rhetoric. I am sorry if that came across as obnoxious, as that was not my intent. My point is that you truly either dont understand what is in th TA or you dont care. I hope it is the former, because if it is, I implore you to carefully compare the current book and the TA, and hopefully you will then understand how significant of an increase the new TA is.
As it was mentioned prior, you can give a starving man bread and water and he will gladly accept and consume but it doesn’t mean he’s nourished...
More nonsense. You can give a starving man a 100% increase over 5 years, you can give a man a 53% avg hourly increase DOS, you can give a man $75 million in signing bonus and the list goes on and on. That isnt bread and water. That is life changing money for this pilot group. If this TA doesnt"nourish" you, well, then you will never be nourished. Just like the Spirit, and Jet Blue and United and Delta and Fedex pilots that were *****ing that their TAs were also $hit.
Maybe instead of bread and water you should try a heaping portion of reality, because that is exactly what the doctor ordered.
Reading is fundamental.
If you open up the current contract and read the scheduling section, is it EXACTLY like that in the TA? Did the NC just cut and paste our old in for the new?
The sections are different. Drastically. It would take a post that would be several paragraphs long to explain the changes. If you either refuse to acknowledge this or just don't want to (for other reasons), that's on you. Nothing we can do about that. But stating that here and expecting me and/or others to believe it shows your ignorance - either of our current contract or the TA (or both).
You can continue to try and confuse those who, like you, either didn't read it or did but wanna close their eyes and act oblivious, but those who DID read it and aren't afraid to actually try and understand what the company wants know better.
And BTW, going from absolute last to 2nd to last is improvement, yes. But, it's still well into the losing category would you not agree?
[QUOTE=dracir1;2734800]
Ok, it’s amazing to me some people’s perspective...
If the company came into negotiations and offered a $10 increase on all of our current rates but then told us the only way we could have that extra $10 would be to accept PBS. Would this be a good TA then? If not, what if it was $20? $50? What if it was B6 rates? Or Delta +1? When does a TA go from bad, to average to good? What are the key indicators? What rates make it good?
What is your point? this isnt what happened.
Nobody is stating that the wage rate isn’t an improvement. The debate is about whether it is ENOUGH given giving up positive phone contact language, PBS and the gaining unlimited reassignment language.
We didnt give up anything. The company attempts to contact pilots today. There are pilots that have refused to contact the company after a cancellation and they were docked pay, they didnt get in trouble. If they try to contact you during a sit, just like today, you cn call back or not, if they really want to get in touch with you they will remove you from the release and you will call them or not. It is current practice. There is no significant change.
The reassignment language is the exact same as today. Today they can reassign you any time they want, are you going to argue "schedule integrity" that is an arbitration we will lose. This is the EXACT practice as today, except now there is a limit to how many legs you can do if you get reassigned outside the footprint, there is NO hard limit today, and there is 5 hours of pay IN ADDITION to the value of the sequence( not the practice today). There is NO MORE JA in the new TA, today the company JA you to fly on your day off, or outside the footprint of your sequence.
The wage increase puts us at 2nd to last just barely above Allegiant and behind Spirit. Think about that. We got a raise that brought us to 2nd from last behind about 7 other airlines. And every single one of those other airlines, including Allegiant, are scheduled to begin their next round of negotiations before we do.
The Rates are higher than Sprirt by 1%. Not a huge difference, but once again, what your saying is false. Spirit 321 override is not their guaranteed rate. Granted if they get rid of all 320s their rate will be 10% higher than book, but if they get rid of 321s or more likely get fewer 321s than 320s as a % of block hours going forward, the 321 override will go down, which means instead of 1.8 or 1.9% override, it could be 1.5 or 1.0 or .75%... Point is, the pilots have no control of the value of the override.
Of course, you can work you butt off and fly 85+ hours and get more money. You can do that at all the other ones too. The 125% above 82 hours doesn’t raise the overall effective wage that much.
Work your but off? Yes you can. I personally dont and year after year credit north of 1200 hours. I ALWAYS credit at least 2 hours for each hour I fly. And, I didnt take any VJS/JAs over the summer. That was a personal decision that I made. 125% over 82 equates to $12/ hour for me bringing my average effective rate for the year to $257.
What is lost in translation is that the days of crediting 25-50% more than flying are going to be significantly diminished with PBS.
Wrong. Due to our marketing system, the Optimizer will not be able to make large changes to the pairing build. If they want to pay less rig, it will mean more 100% DHs to get pilots back to domicile. If they want to pay less 100% DH it will mean more rig due to longer TAFB. They cant magically make pairings more efficient. What PBS does is let you choose the same crappy pairings we have today(albiet more valuable due to new rig, DH and AMDP pay leading to more days off) instead of having the lines prebuilt for you and forcing you to choose from them.
Anyone who says this TA is good is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Their ability to delineate good from average and poor is diminished due to being below poor for so long.
Your rhetoric is so tedious. You clearly dont have a true grasp of what is in the current book and what is in the TA. Although why would you? You spend your life on APC, regurgitating the same false rhetoric. I am sorry if that came across as obnoxious, as that was not my intent. My point is that you truly either dont understand what is in th TA or you dont care. I hope it is the former, because if it is, I implore you to carefully compare the current book and the TA, and hopefully you will then understand how significant of an increase the new TA is.
As it was mentioned prior, you can give a starving man bread and water and he will gladly accept and consume but it doesn’t mean he’s nourished...
More nonsense. You can give a starving man a 100% increase over 5 years, you can give a man a 53% avg hourly increase DOS, you can give a man $75 million in signing bonus and the list goes on and on. That isnt bread and water. That is life changing money for this pilot group. If this TA doesnt"nourish" you, well, then you will never be nourished. Just like the Spirit, and Jet Blue and United and Delta and Fedex pilots that were *****ing that their TAs were also $hit.
Maybe instead of bread and water you should try a heaping portion of reality, because that is exactly what the doctor ordered.
If you open up the current contract and read the scheduling section, is it EXACTLY like that in the TA? Did the NC just cut and paste our old in for the new?
The sections are different. Drastically. It would take a post that would be several paragraphs long to explain the changes. If you either refuse to acknowledge this or just don't want to (for other reasons), that's on you. Nothing we can do about that. But stating that here and expecting me and/or others to believe it shows your ignorance - either of our current contract or the TA (or both).
You can continue to try and confuse those who, like you, either didn't read it or did but wanna close their eyes and act oblivious, but those who DID read it and aren't afraid to actually try and understand what the company wants know better.
And BTW, going from absolute last to 2nd to last is improvement, yes. But, it's still well into the losing category would you not agree?
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