Frontier Negotiations Discussion
12-09-2018, 07:01 PM
#4212
king of the dung hill
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Position: by the woodstove with a whiskey
Posts: 6
...collective bargaining only works if the collective stand together. Everyone voting in their own self interest is how a management team divides its labor and forces them to accept substandard agreements.
Work rules, which affect everyone, are being sold with one clear winner, year 12 CA. If you can consider lowest paid year 12 CA to be a winner. Stand together and enter the pattern, or accept quick cash now and give clear support for F9 and the NMB to hold you out of the pattern for every cycle moving forward. Whether the next cycle is pilot friendly or concessionary make no mistake, if you vote in bottom of the pattern rates and rules now, you will end up at the bottom of the pattern every time moving forward. Go ahead and calculate that.
Work rules, which affect everyone, are being sold with one clear winner, year 12 CA. If you can consider lowest paid year 12 CA to be a winner. Stand together and enter the pattern, or accept quick cash now and give clear support for F9 and the NMB to hold you out of the pattern for every cycle moving forward. Whether the next cycle is pilot friendly or concessionary make no mistake, if you vote in bottom of the pattern rates and rules now, you will end up at the bottom of the pattern every time moving forward. Go ahead and calculate that.
all of this infighting is exactly what blowfish barry wants.
100% ready to strike = we will gladly accept the first insultingly-low scrap thrown our way?
their goal is to keep crushing millions while convincing 51% of us to sell out....
we have the upper hand! they came to the table. this is the hour of our crucible! hold the line and make your sons and daughters proud.
12-09-2018, 07:14 PM
#4213
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 514
Are the subprime, lowtier Frontier pilots that have been on property more than 3 years fully vested into any/all of the lowtier, subprime, industry-bottom retirement plan future contributions that the union "negotiated" for us?
I can't tell. Do we vest on this schedule for each contribution and the years of service apply to the contribution or does the vesting apply to the pilot's longevity?
A vesting schedule is just so non-industry-standard and not within the previous patterns that I've been able to find with a market-rate retirement plan. That and language is vague to me and not well defined.
Which brings me to another point. Are they going to refine our TA? Have you guys seen Spirit's Table of Contents? Aye yi yi... Now THAT'S a table of contents... Spirit Airlines smoked the hell out of us with their TA. Ours is totally embarrassing.
I can't tell. Do we vest on this schedule for each contribution and the years of service apply to the contribution or does the vesting apply to the pilot's longevity?
A vesting schedule is just so non-industry-standard and not within the previous patterns that I've been able to find with a market-rate retirement plan. That and language is vague to me and not well defined.
Which brings me to another point. Are they going to refine our TA? Have you guys seen Spirit's Table of Contents? Aye yi yi... Now THAT'S a table of contents... Spirit Airlines smoked the hell out of us with their TA. Ours is totally embarrassing.
12-09-2018, 07:41 PM
#4215
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 418
^^^ this person gets it.
all of this infighting is exactly what blowfish barry wants.
100% ready to strike = we will gladly accept the first insultingly-low scrap thrown our way?
their goal is to keep crushing millions while convincing 51% of us to sell out....
we have the upper hand! they came to the table. this is the hour of our crucible! hold the line and make your sons and daughters proud.
all of this infighting is exactly what blowfish barry wants.
100% ready to strike = we will gladly accept the first insultingly-low scrap thrown our way?
their goal is to keep crushing millions while convincing 51% of us to sell out....
we have the upper hand! they came to the table. this is the hour of our crucible! hold the line and make your sons and daughters proud.
Everything you say is true. We hold the cards. The time could never be better for us to get what we have earned and repayment for the sacrifices this pilot group has made. Now is the time to get it right, not 8 years from now.
Solidarity folks. Let's discuss this. Let's debate this. Let's not call each other names, insult each other, or make it personal between ourselves. We are on the same team.
btw wiggler... I'm by the fire with a cold whiskey myself!
12-10-2018, 08:43 AM
#4216
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Bus CA
Posts: 660
I wanted this TA to work, because I had trust in the people we had working on our behalf to secure a contract. And I don’t discount their efforts. I’ve used BK’s calculator, and I’m fully aware of the time-value of money and the (potential) financial consequences of voting this TA down. Beyond substandard compensation on date of signing and the negatives PBS could bring, it’s the new potential for reassignment that is a deal breaker for me.
The problem is that we gave away our current Postive Telephone Contact language. Which currently gives the company no mechanism to notify us of a reassignment; the only way it does happen is after a cancellation of a flight, then you have no way of playing dumb and not contacting scheduling. I’ve heard we have some guys that tried to play dumb after a cancellation, they were brought into Section 13 hearings, but that isn’t commonplace.
We had the option to leave our phones in airplane mode and use them only for personal use, this new language changes that. In exchange for being on the hook via phone like our flight attendants, we got subpar protections in the reassignment language.
I know the TA reassignment language is improved over old contract, but that old language was essentially cancelled out (in most cases) because the company couldn’t contact us while on a trip.
There are now penalties when the company flies us outside the footprint of our original trip, ok great. BUT there HAS to be more limits to what Crew Scheduling can throw on your schedule. There’s only one caveat in the TA; they can’t reassign you into redeye/CDO leg(s) if redeye flying wasn’t in your original pairing.
How about some limits on how much additional flight and duty time they can reassign to you? At least for the first day of any reassignment, no greater than 120mins of additional flight time and no greater than 4 additional hours of duty; sounds reasonable right?
Without limitations, CS can manipulate your schedule right up to FAR117 limits. Imagine this, you show up on Day 1 of a 4 day trip. You’ve rested and prepared yourself for your scheduled one leg from DEN to MCO with 4hrs of flight block and 5 hours of duty. Your phone rings 1 minute after your report time, “Captain Smith, this is Crew Scheduling, you’ve been reassigned to another 4 day pairing that operates within the same footprint of your original pairing. Today you are flying Denver to San Antonio, San Antonio to Ontario, Ontario to San Antonio. You flight block for today is 8 hours, 14 minutes and your duty period is now 11 hours (before the storms in San Antonio cause you further delay).” That is from an actual Denver pairing. And yes you would be paid the greater value of what you were originally scheduled or reassigned, but you’re only going to make extra money if the entire trip exceeds the value of your original pairing. You flew 3 times as many legs, twice the flight hours and duty period.
That is not an exaggerated example. It just sounds horrendous to me, I would dislike this job more than I do today. This example could happen on a non-event type of day. Crew Scheduling just decided that your trip was easier to split up between two reserve pilots than your reassigned trip, so they robbed you of your trip and stuck with a ball-buster Day 1.
I thought the compensation was going to be the biggest stink for me, it’s not.
I can’t in good conscience support this TA.
The problem is that we gave away our current Postive Telephone Contact language. Which currently gives the company no mechanism to notify us of a reassignment; the only way it does happen is after a cancellation of a flight, then you have no way of playing dumb and not contacting scheduling. I’ve heard we have some guys that tried to play dumb after a cancellation, they were brought into Section 13 hearings, but that isn’t commonplace.
We had the option to leave our phones in airplane mode and use them only for personal use, this new language changes that. In exchange for being on the hook via phone like our flight attendants, we got subpar protections in the reassignment language.
I know the TA reassignment language is improved over old contract, but that old language was essentially cancelled out (in most cases) because the company couldn’t contact us while on a trip.
There are now penalties when the company flies us outside the footprint of our original trip, ok great. BUT there HAS to be more limits to what Crew Scheduling can throw on your schedule. There’s only one caveat in the TA; they can’t reassign you into redeye/CDO leg(s) if redeye flying wasn’t in your original pairing.
How about some limits on how much additional flight and duty time they can reassign to you? At least for the first day of any reassignment, no greater than 120mins of additional flight time and no greater than 4 additional hours of duty; sounds reasonable right?
Without limitations, CS can manipulate your schedule right up to FAR117 limits. Imagine this, you show up on Day 1 of a 4 day trip. You’ve rested and prepared yourself for your scheduled one leg from DEN to MCO with 4hrs of flight block and 5 hours of duty. Your phone rings 1 minute after your report time, “Captain Smith, this is Crew Scheduling, you’ve been reassigned to another 4 day pairing that operates within the same footprint of your original pairing. Today you are flying Denver to San Antonio, San Antonio to Ontario, Ontario to San Antonio. You flight block for today is 8 hours, 14 minutes and your duty period is now 11 hours (before the storms in San Antonio cause you further delay).” That is from an actual Denver pairing. And yes you would be paid the greater value of what you were originally scheduled or reassigned, but you’re only going to make extra money if the entire trip exceeds the value of your original pairing. You flew 3 times as many legs, twice the flight hours and duty period.
That is not an exaggerated example. It just sounds horrendous to me, I would dislike this job more than I do today. This example could happen on a non-event type of day. Crew Scheduling just decided that your trip was easier to split up between two reserve pilots than your reassigned trip, so they robbed you of your trip and stuck with a ball-buster Day 1.
I thought the compensation was going to be the biggest stink for me, it’s not.
I can’t in good conscience support this TA.
12-10-2018, 10:49 AM
#4218
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
I wanted this TA to work, because I had trust in the people we had working on our behalf to secure a contract. And I don’t discount their efforts. I’ve used BK’s calculator, and I’m fully aware of the time-value of money and the (potential) financial consequences of voting this TA down. Beyond substandard compensation on date of signing and the negatives PBS could bring, it’s the new potential for reassignment that is a deal breaker for me.
The problem is that we gave away our current Postive Telephone Contact language. Which currently gives the company no mechanism to notify us of a reassignment; the only way it does happen is after a cancellation of a flight, then you have no way of playing dumb and not contacting scheduling. I’ve heard we have some guys that tried to play dumb after a cancellation, they were brought into Section 13 hearings, but that isn’t commonplace.
We had the option to leave our phones in airplane mode and use them only for personal use, this new language changes that. In exchange for being on the hook via phone like our flight attendants, we got subpar protections in the reassignment language.
I know the TA reassignment language is improved over old contract, but that old language was essentially cancelled out (in most cases) because the company couldn’t contact us while on a trip.
There are now penalties when the company flies us outside the footprint of our original trip, ok great. BUT there HAS to be more limits to what Crew Scheduling can throw on your schedule. There’s only one caveat in the TA; they can’t reassign you into redeye/CDO leg(s) if redeye flying wasn’t in your original pairing.
How about some limits on how much additional flight and duty time they can reassign to you? At least for the first day of any reassignment, no greater than 120mins of additional flight time and no greater than 4 additional hours of duty; sounds reasonable right?
Without limitations, CS can manipulate your schedule right up to FAR117 limits. Imagine this, you show up on Day 1 of a 4 day trip. You’ve rested and prepared yourself for your scheduled one leg from DEN to MCO with 4hrs of flight block and 5 hours of duty. Your phone rings 1 minute after your report time, “Captain Smith, this is Crew Scheduling, you’ve been reassigned to another 4 day pairing that operates within the same footprint of your original pairing. Today you are flying Denver to San Antonio, San Antonio to Ontario, Ontario to San Antonio. You flight block for today is 8 hours, 14 minutes and your duty period is now 11 hours (before the storms in San Antonio cause you further delay).” That is from an actual Denver pairing. And yes you would be paid the greater value of what you were originally scheduled or reassigned, but you’re only going to make extra money if the entire trip exceeds the value of your original pairing. You flew 3 times as many legs, twice the flight hours and duty period.
That is not an exaggerated example. It just sounds horrendous to me, I would dislike this job more than I do today. This example could happen on a non-event type of day. Crew Scheduling just decided that your trip was easier to split up between two reserve pilots than your reassigned trip, so they robbed you of your trip and stuck with a ball-buster Day 1.
I thought the compensation was going to be the biggest stink for me, it’s not.
I can’t in good conscience support this TA.
The problem is that we gave away our current Postive Telephone Contact language. Which currently gives the company no mechanism to notify us of a reassignment; the only way it does happen is after a cancellation of a flight, then you have no way of playing dumb and not contacting scheduling. I’ve heard we have some guys that tried to play dumb after a cancellation, they were brought into Section 13 hearings, but that isn’t commonplace.
We had the option to leave our phones in airplane mode and use them only for personal use, this new language changes that. In exchange for being on the hook via phone like our flight attendants, we got subpar protections in the reassignment language.
I know the TA reassignment language is improved over old contract, but that old language was essentially cancelled out (in most cases) because the company couldn’t contact us while on a trip.
There are now penalties when the company flies us outside the footprint of our original trip, ok great. BUT there HAS to be more limits to what Crew Scheduling can throw on your schedule. There’s only one caveat in the TA; they can’t reassign you into redeye/CDO leg(s) if redeye flying wasn’t in your original pairing.
How about some limits on how much additional flight and duty time they can reassign to you? At least for the first day of any reassignment, no greater than 120mins of additional flight time and no greater than 4 additional hours of duty; sounds reasonable right?
Without limitations, CS can manipulate your schedule right up to FAR117 limits. Imagine this, you show up on Day 1 of a 4 day trip. You’ve rested and prepared yourself for your scheduled one leg from DEN to MCO with 4hrs of flight block and 5 hours of duty. Your phone rings 1 minute after your report time, “Captain Smith, this is Crew Scheduling, you’ve been reassigned to another 4 day pairing that operates within the same footprint of your original pairing. Today you are flying Denver to San Antonio, San Antonio to Ontario, Ontario to San Antonio. You flight block for today is 8 hours, 14 minutes and your duty period is now 11 hours (before the storms in San Antonio cause you further delay).” That is from an actual Denver pairing. And yes you would be paid the greater value of what you were originally scheduled or reassigned, but you’re only going to make extra money if the entire trip exceeds the value of your original pairing. You flew 3 times as many legs, twice the flight hours and duty period.
That is not an exaggerated example. It just sounds horrendous to me, I would dislike this job more than I do today. This example could happen on a non-event type of day. Crew Scheduling just decided that your trip was easier to split up between two reserve pilots than your reassigned trip, so they robbed you of your trip and stuck with a ball-buster Day 1.
I thought the compensation was going to be the biggest stink for me, it’s not.
I can’t in good conscience support this TA.
In MY opinion it is OK for the company to have the language they currently have to be able to reassign us and basically make us reserves once we start a pairing, and force us to have to contact them. Sometimes operational need may require that. But to keep it from becoming a norm, they should have to PAY for it. It should not come free.
12-10-2018, 11:31 AM
#4219
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 70
I wanted this TA to work, because I had trust in the people we had working on our behalf to secure a contract. And I don’t discount their efforts. I’ve used BK’s calculator, and I’m fully aware of the time-value of money and the (potential) financial consequences of voting this TA down. Beyond substandard compensation on date of signing and the negatives PBS could bring, it’s the new potential for reassignment that is a deal breaker for me.
The problem is that we gave away our current Postive Telephone Contact language. Which currently gives the company no mechanism to notify us of a reassignment; the only way it does happen is after a cancellation of a flight, then you have no way of playing dumb and not contacting scheduling. I’ve heard we have some guys that tried to play dumb after a cancellation, they were brought into Section 13 hearings, but that isn’t commonplace.
We had the option to leave our phones in airplane mode and use them only for personal use, this new language changes that. In exchange for being on the hook via phone like our flight attendants, we got subpar protections in the reassignment language.
I know the TA reassignment language is improved over old contract, but that old language was essentially cancelled out (in most cases) because the company couldn’t contact us while on a trip.
There are now penalties when the company flies us outside the footprint of our original trip, ok great. BUT there HAS to be more limits to what Crew Scheduling can throw on your schedule. There’s only one caveat in the TA; they can’t reassign you into redeye/CDO leg(s) if redeye flying wasn’t in your original pairing.
How about some limits on how much additional flight and duty time they can reassign to you? At least for the first day of any reassignment, no greater than 120mins of additional flight time and no greater than 4 additional hours of duty; sounds reasonable right?
Without limitations, CS can manipulate your schedule right up to FAR117 limits. Imagine this, you show up on Day 1 of a 4 day trip. You’ve rested and prepared yourself for your scheduled one leg from DEN to MCO with 4hrs of flight block and 5 hours of duty. Your phone rings 1 minute after your report time, “Captain Smith, this is Crew Scheduling, you’ve been reassigned to another 4 day pairing that operates within the same footprint of your original pairing. Today you are flying Denver to San Antonio, San Antonio to Ontario, Ontario to San Antonio. You flight block for today is 8 hours, 14 minutes and your duty period is now 11 hours (before the storms in San Antonio cause you further delay).” That is from an actual Denver pairing. And yes you would be paid the greater value of what you were originally scheduled or reassigned, but you’re only going to make extra money if the entire trip exceeds the value of your original pairing. You flew 3 times as many legs, twice the flight hours and duty period.
That is not an exaggerated example. It just sounds horrendous to me, I would dislike this job more than I do today. This example could happen on a non-event type of day. Crew Scheduling just decided that your trip was easier to split up between two reserve pilots than your reassigned trip, so they robbed you of your trip and stuck with a ball-buster Day 1.
I thought the compensation was going to be the biggest stink for me, it’s not.
I can’t in good conscience support this TA.
The problem is that we gave away our current Postive Telephone Contact language. Which currently gives the company no mechanism to notify us of a reassignment; the only way it does happen is after a cancellation of a flight, then you have no way of playing dumb and not contacting scheduling. I’ve heard we have some guys that tried to play dumb after a cancellation, they were brought into Section 13 hearings, but that isn’t commonplace.
We had the option to leave our phones in airplane mode and use them only for personal use, this new language changes that. In exchange for being on the hook via phone like our flight attendants, we got subpar protections in the reassignment language.
I know the TA reassignment language is improved over old contract, but that old language was essentially cancelled out (in most cases) because the company couldn’t contact us while on a trip.
There are now penalties when the company flies us outside the footprint of our original trip, ok great. BUT there HAS to be more limits to what Crew Scheduling can throw on your schedule. There’s only one caveat in the TA; they can’t reassign you into redeye/CDO leg(s) if redeye flying wasn’t in your original pairing.
How about some limits on how much additional flight and duty time they can reassign to you? At least for the first day of any reassignment, no greater than 120mins of additional flight time and no greater than 4 additional hours of duty; sounds reasonable right?
Without limitations, CS can manipulate your schedule right up to FAR117 limits. Imagine this, you show up on Day 1 of a 4 day trip. You’ve rested and prepared yourself for your scheduled one leg from DEN to MCO with 4hrs of flight block and 5 hours of duty. Your phone rings 1 minute after your report time, “Captain Smith, this is Crew Scheduling, you’ve been reassigned to another 4 day pairing that operates within the same footprint of your original pairing. Today you are flying Denver to San Antonio, San Antonio to Ontario, Ontario to San Antonio. You flight block for today is 8 hours, 14 minutes and your duty period is now 11 hours (before the storms in San Antonio cause you further delay).” That is from an actual Denver pairing. And yes you would be paid the greater value of what you were originally scheduled or reassigned, but you’re only going to make extra money if the entire trip exceeds the value of your original pairing. You flew 3 times as many legs, twice the flight hours and duty period.
That is not an exaggerated example. It just sounds horrendous to me, I would dislike this job more than I do today. This example could happen on a non-event type of day. Crew Scheduling just decided that your trip was easier to split up between two reserve pilots than your reassigned trip, so they robbed you of your trip and stuck with a ball-buster Day 1.
I thought the compensation was going to be the biggest stink for me, it’s not.
I can’t in good conscience support this TA.
12-10-2018, 11:51 AM
#4220
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
In MY opinion it is OK for the company to have the language they currently have to be able to reassign us and basically make us reserves once we start a pairing, and force us to have to contact them. Sometimes operational need may require that. But to keep it from becoming a norm, they should have to PAY for it. It should not come free.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
