dracir1

Let’s say you’re paid min wage. Everyone else in the world is paid roughly $20 an hour to do the same job.

Your boss offers you a raise to $15 an hour but takes away a week of vacation.

Do u accept?

Sometimes it’s not just the raise that matters but what that raise means relative to your industry.

chinookwinds

Hey dracir1...sent you a PM

Planepirate

Good example. It sounds like a “no way”!!... That is until you find out that everyone else gets two weeks of vacation. You used to get 4 but now you give up a week. You still have more vacation than your peers. So “relative to the industry” you are still doing better. That’s why you have to read and study the whole TA. Research. Talk to your reps. Go to road shows. It’s not as cut and dry “yes” or “no” when the only info you have is some bullet points.

dracir1

First, we're not the only ones who get 4 weeks.

Second, let's look at the financials of you getting 3 weeks and everyone else only getting 2. One week of vacation at 5 hour min day for a week comes to 7 days x 5 hours per day =35 hours of vacation credit. 35 hours x $15 (the wage you voted in) = $525. So, if (BIG IF) you have one more week of vacation than everyone else, you gain $525. And keep in mind that if you only credit 75 hours that month (and fly only 40 hours), you still get just your monthly salary of $1,125.

However, being paid $5 less than everyone else for the ENTIRE year is $5 x 900 hours = $4500. Everyone else's annual salary is 900 hours x $20 = $18,000 (with 2 weeks vacation). You make only $13,500 (with 3 weeks).

Is that extra week of vacation really worth $3500 to you? That's almost 1/3 of your annual salary! In order for you to get the equivalent "pay" via vacation time, you'd have to get 8 more weeks of vacation than everyone else.

Let's say you WORKED during your vacation week. Ok, so now you are getting paid your $525 for vacation and earning your wage/hour up to 82 hours. All hours above that, you'd be earning $18.75 ($15x1.25). You are STILL gonna come out way behind. In order to be equivalent, you would need to credit 97 hours each month for the entire year - 82 hours x $15 / hour (regular wage) + 15 hours x 18.75 (1.25 extra wage) = 1511.25 / month or $18,135 annually.

I agree, we do need to do research. We do need to talk to our reps. From the AIP, "If the MEC approves the agreement and authorizes membership ratification, the full language agreement will be forwarded to you for review. We will schedule a series of all-pilot conference calls and/or webinars, as well as face-to-face meetings in each domicile to brief you and answer your questions. There will be ample time for you to review these materials and get your questions answered before voting opens. We are committed to our union’s democratic process and intend to have an in-depth conversation with Frontier pilots about our contract and our future before asking you to vote."

dracir1

I think the very thing many people aren't realizing is that these small (some say insignificant) changes in vacation, less wage than industry average, etc. all translate to real life losses vs. industry norm. Of course, it's all relative (all narrow body pilots make good money relative to most professions) but amongst our industry, the losses are quantifiable and significant.

For every $5 less in wage that we accept vs. everyone else equals $375 less per month (based on 75 hours credit). That's $4500 per year or an additional car payment. Or possibly the difference between a 3 bedroom or 4 bedroom house. Or even the difference of our children going to community college for 2 years prior to the state university vs. going to state for 4. Not to mention, $5 more per hour for 5 - 8 years means less DC by the company and less retirement for us. LTD is based on wage too.

And getting $5 more per hour would STILL have us earning less than industry average.

ALPA proposed a new compensation table on 8-23-18 during negotiations. EVERY single one of those wages (except for 1st year which would still be company derived) was > $5 more for each year than in this AIP. In fact, that proposal was > $20 more for each year.

The way Indigo became billionaires is by caring about the small (some say insignificant) changes.

FollowMe

The key being that the appropriate comparison point is your peers. Just like the people who complain about NFL players holding out for more on their contract, it’s not how much money they are making in comparison to someone flipping burgers, it’s how much they are being compensated compared to how equally talented players are compensted in their position.

This is where the discount pilot comments come out towards yes voters, whether you think they are justified or not. If the market rate for a DNB Pilot is X, you should be expecting X (+/- some small variation). It is not your job to figure out how to make the company profitable while paying you X.

dracir1

Exactly.

The last pilot strike that occurred, the general public thought it was millionaires whining (and could care less). But, what's often forgotten is the cost of pilot training. The stress associated with having the safety and well being of hundreds of lives in our hands. The decision making associated w/ bad weather, etc.

But most important, the fact that there are SEVERAL other airlines that fly the exact same plane in the exact same conditions with the even less # of lives to account for but are compensated at a MUCH higher rate is atrocious.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...hts/955121002/

Mugatu

Exactly.

We will forever be Rusty Griswold in the 2015 Vacation movie.

putzin

No dog in your fight and your numbers are good, except.

The time to get the extra $5 bucks an hour was DURING negotiations NOT waiting 6 months or year by voting "no" on this AIP.

You're $65 bucks an hour BEHIND even us lowley Spirit pilots. You'll pay for that $5 bucks an hour and still be out of the money by holding out voting "no". 75*65*12= $58,500

So do you think you can achieve 15 or 20 an hour, because that's what you'll need. While you were on ice, besides PBS, how much more did you achieve?

If I remember right our NC came back with .50¢. There wasn't much faith they'd achieve more.

Also some of you keep throwing out Dal and Swa holding out, they didn't have to achieve nearly as much as we did or you do. Either way, at this time, voting "yes" or "no" you're already out the money your speaking about.

You will have your pride voting "no" though, but that doesn't buy cars, bedrooms or State college.

Best

Ohreallynow

They do the same job. Work for a different company though. Wal-Mart employees and Target employees do the same job. Different experience between the two companies and a quick Google search has a 10% difference in pay between the two.