Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-20-2018, 01:24 PM
#3571
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
This was one of my biggest concerns when talking to Union. For as poor as the deal is, it is simply too long. The argument of bringing us closer to the pattern so we can negotiate more next time is great, which is what union kept saying, except that the next time we negotiate is a long long ways off. If it was a short deal it would be more palatable.
Also something, anything that forces them to negotiate in good faith at the end of the contract is another item. Un-ending pay increases, additional vacation weeks, language that doubles the value of our premium folder after the contract is expired...there are a lot of things we could do. In fairness the company could argue that this give us less incentive to come to the table, but we simply have to prove we are bargaining in good faith, if we don't then the provisions do not apply. If we do and we do not have a new deal after this expires, they do apply. But this wont happen. To much "capital" in time wasted for something like this. Why was "capital" to protect ourselves from the company who has shown time and again they don't care about us?
Also something, anything that forces them to negotiate in good faith at the end of the contract is another item. Un-ending pay increases, additional vacation weeks, language that doubles the value of our premium folder after the contract is expired...there are a lot of things we could do. In fairness the company could argue that this give us less incentive to come to the table, but we simply have to prove we are bargaining in good faith, if we don't then the provisions do not apply. If we do and we do not have a new deal after this expires, they do apply. But this wont happen. To much "capital" in time wasted for something like this. Why was "capital" to protect ourselves from the company who has shown time and again they don't care about us?
11-20-2018, 01:39 PM
#3574
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
Does anyone NOT see the obvious ironic juxtaposition - the very people who vowed they wouldn’t accept PBS are the ones negotiating its condition after accepting?
Can we trust them to say NO on our behalf if/when needed? How much PBS is too much?
More importantly, if we vote this in but the company tries to stuff too much PBS down our throats, are we up for rejecting the whole thing because?
Can we trust them to say NO on our behalf if/when needed? How much PBS is too much?
More importantly, if we vote this in but the company tries to stuff too much PBS down our throats, are we up for rejecting the whole thing because?
11-20-2018, 01:41 PM
#3575
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
11-20-2018, 02:57 PM
#3576
Last To Know First To Go
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 609
Here's the way I see it right now:
We have simply been outplayed by Indigo, Frontier, the NMB and the system in general.
The reality is that the NMB sees us differently from the legacies. And maybe they are right to a degree. Low cost airlines around the world pay their pilots less than the big, international legacy airlines. SouthWest has broken that chain, but they really aren't a low cost carrier anymore and it took them 30 years to get to industry leading. They are basically an 'economy only' legacy. They aint cheap anymore.
First, I feel that the company has an awful lot to use to make their case that they can't and wont pay us on par with the big boys. The NMB sees a roughly 45 to 50% pay raise and thinks its a killer deal. If we vote no, don't expect to see a drop of sympathy or help from the NMB. Maybe we don't need their help, I don't really know? But I can guarantee you, they won't be helping us out if we vote no.
Second, we just weren't going to do all that much better. Lets be honest, we were never going to get to UAL/DAL rates. So the reality is the best we could probably ever hope for is to maybe split the difference between Spirits rates and the legacy rates, and that's a stretch. Therefore, the best we could get would be $10/ hour higher, maybe $15. Unfortunately, we would be sacrificing a huge raise for an undetermined period of time to hopefully eek out a few more bucks an hour. That may or may not be worth it, its simply impossible to know.
Third, if we vote it down and send the NC back to the table, the company will simply shuffle money around to make the deal look better to us. Maybe they will add a little bit to the pot, but not much. If we send it back, we need to have a very unified reason why. I don't even know that we have that? Some guys are mad about PBS, some are mad about hourly rates and some are mad about LTD. We can't vote it down and not have a unified reason and demands. What the heck is the NC supposed to do with that? The company could fix our pay rates while taking something else away. These guys aren't stupid, and they aren't just going to give up more money for nothing in exchange. You want $250 an hour? Sure, just give up your 5 hour a day vacation... Heck, the company probably already has a plan if we vote it down. They already know what to move around to make it look better.
Lastly, I believe that this was going to be one of the most difficult section 6 negotiations ever. We were soooo far behind its not even funny, and we are negotiating against the toughest boys in the industry. Frontier has converted into a ULCC, like it or not. Anyone hired in the past 5 years knew this. Anyone here longer than 5 years has had their company change business models, something that is simply out of your control. In addition, Indigo is simply a cold hearted group of private equity, "profit over people" group of assholz. This just wasn't going to go well for us.
Now, that being said, I don't think we are totally screwed here either. This TA is subpar, no doubt. But it brings us way way closer to industry standard, and puts us in a much better position going forward. We are currently an statistical outlier, and if this is voted in, we will be in the pattern, albeit the bottom end of it. Isn't that what our lanyards said? Bring us into the pattern. Not, bring us to the top of the industry?
This deal provides big pay raises, and a substantially improved retirement contribution system. While we should all be disappointed, this is not a total garbage contract either.
FLAME AWAY!!!
I want to see how ****ed off every one gets at me. We all know this suckers getting voted in anyhow. Pilots cant resist money. Indigo simply outplayed us. The only question is if this passes by more than 60%
We have simply been outplayed by Indigo, Frontier, the NMB and the system in general.
The reality is that the NMB sees us differently from the legacies. And maybe they are right to a degree. Low cost airlines around the world pay their pilots less than the big, international legacy airlines. SouthWest has broken that chain, but they really aren't a low cost carrier anymore and it took them 30 years to get to industry leading. They are basically an 'economy only' legacy. They aint cheap anymore.
First, I feel that the company has an awful lot to use to make their case that they can't and wont pay us on par with the big boys. The NMB sees a roughly 45 to 50% pay raise and thinks its a killer deal. If we vote no, don't expect to see a drop of sympathy or help from the NMB. Maybe we don't need their help, I don't really know? But I can guarantee you, they won't be helping us out if we vote no.
Second, we just weren't going to do all that much better. Lets be honest, we were never going to get to UAL/DAL rates. So the reality is the best we could probably ever hope for is to maybe split the difference between Spirits rates and the legacy rates, and that's a stretch. Therefore, the best we could get would be $10/ hour higher, maybe $15. Unfortunately, we would be sacrificing a huge raise for an undetermined period of time to hopefully eek out a few more bucks an hour. That may or may not be worth it, its simply impossible to know.
Third, if we vote it down and send the NC back to the table, the company will simply shuffle money around to make the deal look better to us. Maybe they will add a little bit to the pot, but not much. If we send it back, we need to have a very unified reason why. I don't even know that we have that? Some guys are mad about PBS, some are mad about hourly rates and some are mad about LTD. We can't vote it down and not have a unified reason and demands. What the heck is the NC supposed to do with that? The company could fix our pay rates while taking something else away. These guys aren't stupid, and they aren't just going to give up more money for nothing in exchange. You want $250 an hour? Sure, just give up your 5 hour a day vacation... Heck, the company probably already has a plan if we vote it down. They already know what to move around to make it look better.
Lastly, I believe that this was going to be one of the most difficult section 6 negotiations ever. We were soooo far behind its not even funny, and we are negotiating against the toughest boys in the industry. Frontier has converted into a ULCC, like it or not. Anyone hired in the past 5 years knew this. Anyone here longer than 5 years has had their company change business models, something that is simply out of your control. In addition, Indigo is simply a cold hearted group of private equity, "profit over people" group of assholz. This just wasn't going to go well for us.
Now, that being said, I don't think we are totally screwed here either. This TA is subpar, no doubt. But it brings us way way closer to industry standard, and puts us in a much better position going forward. We are currently an statistical outlier, and if this is voted in, we will be in the pattern, albeit the bottom end of it. Isn't that what our lanyards said? Bring us into the pattern. Not, bring us to the top of the industry?
This deal provides big pay raises, and a substantially improved retirement contribution system. While we should all be disappointed, this is not a total garbage contract either.
FLAME AWAY!!!
I want to see how ****ed off every one gets at me. We all know this suckers getting voted in anyhow. Pilots cant resist money. Indigo simply outplayed us. The only question is if this passes by more than 60%
11-20-2018, 07:42 PM
#3578
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 85
The real issue...
It’s not the wage. It’s not PBS or the 1.25 above 82 hours or min day or all the other stuff. It all boils down to mental toughness.
For all the No voters, just think that this AIP could be worse then proposed and there would still be yes voters. Why? Simple. They are tired of being so far away from everyone else wage wise that just being closer (albeit still at the bottom) allows them at least some dignity and self respect. They’re also tired of the tricks being played by the company - cancelled vacations, blatant disregard for following contract rules, etc. So to them, what’s a few dollars here and there.
And, they DO have a point. It’s impossible to tell if Indigo will improve the contract that much in consecutive rounds of negotiations. About all we know is if they don’t, the NMB will not do anything about it. Essentially, their whole case is that we’re all STUCK at some # and Indigo isn’t gonna budge above that. We can rearrange how we get that $ but it won’t cost the company any more - it just costs US time in deciding how.
For all the YES voters, I would hope that you do actually CRINGE when you look at this AIP. Being convinced that this is all we’re gonna get shouldnt change the fact that the offer is horrible in comparison. We ARE taking a concession in the scheduling dept by accepting PBS. We ARE getting conditions we’ve had in the past (125%) handed back to us like it’s an improvement. We are, to some degree (which is HIGHLY debatable) still gonna be looked down upon by other pilot groups despite the raise. My only hope that you don’t actually believe the talk about his contract not being that bad. It is. Clearly. Trying to tell/convince yourself of that or anyone else makes us all look bad. To accept it for reasons of thinking you won’t get anything better is one thing - to actually think this is good is another.
To all the “wait and see” voters. I get it. You’re the hopers/wishers. The bullet points are out and outside of a few other conditions that still are to be hammered out (which won’t be fully by the time we vote), the AIP is what it is. You thought process is that you’re hoping that we discover some hidden gem of a condition that is good for us that the company overlooked. While I understand your hope, I’m critical of it. I would give that about 1.5% chance of happening in our favor. Hope if you want to, but hopes don’t make $.
So here we are - about to show the world and ourselves what kind of pilot group we have become. I wasn’t here when bankruptcy/ Republic happened but I can say that was a stout group to be able to maintain most of their industry leading conditions and still exist. I think that group realized that it’s better to stand on their feet and possibly perish than to live on their knees but be assured life. That group has shown us the way and should be our example to follow. Congrats to that group and here’s hoping you vote NO as well to see what else Indigo can do for us...
It’s not the wage. It’s not PBS or the 1.25 above 82 hours or min day or all the other stuff. It all boils down to mental toughness.
For all the No voters, just think that this AIP could be worse then proposed and there would still be yes voters. Why? Simple. They are tired of being so far away from everyone else wage wise that just being closer (albeit still at the bottom) allows them at least some dignity and self respect. They’re also tired of the tricks being played by the company - cancelled vacations, blatant disregard for following contract rules, etc. So to them, what’s a few dollars here and there.
And, they DO have a point. It’s impossible to tell if Indigo will improve the contract that much in consecutive rounds of negotiations. About all we know is if they don’t, the NMB will not do anything about it. Essentially, their whole case is that we’re all STUCK at some # and Indigo isn’t gonna budge above that. We can rearrange how we get that $ but it won’t cost the company any more - it just costs US time in deciding how.
For all the YES voters, I would hope that you do actually CRINGE when you look at this AIP. Being convinced that this is all we’re gonna get shouldnt change the fact that the offer is horrible in comparison. We ARE taking a concession in the scheduling dept by accepting PBS. We ARE getting conditions we’ve had in the past (125%) handed back to us like it’s an improvement. We are, to some degree (which is HIGHLY debatable) still gonna be looked down upon by other pilot groups despite the raise. My only hope that you don’t actually believe the talk about his contract not being that bad. It is. Clearly. Trying to tell/convince yourself of that or anyone else makes us all look bad. To accept it for reasons of thinking you won’t get anything better is one thing - to actually think this is good is another.
To all the “wait and see” voters. I get it. You’re the hopers/wishers. The bullet points are out and outside of a few other conditions that still are to be hammered out (which won’t be fully by the time we vote), the AIP is what it is. You thought process is that you’re hoping that we discover some hidden gem of a condition that is good for us that the company overlooked. While I understand your hope, I’m critical of it. I would give that about 1.5% chance of happening in our favor. Hope if you want to, but hopes don’t make $.
So here we are - about to show the world and ourselves what kind of pilot group we have become. I wasn’t here when bankruptcy/ Republic happened but I can say that was a stout group to be able to maintain most of their industry leading conditions and still exist. I think that group realized that it’s better to stand on their feet and possibly perish than to live on their knees but be assured life. That group has shown us the way and should be our example to follow. Congrats to that group and here’s hoping you vote NO as well to see what else Indigo can do for us...
Excellent Excellent post.
11-20-2018, 10:33 PM
#3579
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
11-21-2018, 04:06 AM
#3580
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Underpaid, LCC
Posts: 279
The real issue...
It’s not the wage. It’s not PBS or the 1.25 above 82 hours or min day or all the other stuff. It all boils down to mental toughness.
For all the No voters, just think that this AIP could be worse then proposed and there would still be yes voters. Why? Simple. They are tired of being so far away from everyone else wage wise that just being closer (albeit still at the bottom) allows them at least some dignity and self respect. They’re also tired of the tricks being played by the company - cancelled vacations, blatant disregard for following contract rules, etc. So to them, what’s a few dollars here and there.
And, they DO have a point. It’s impossible to tell if Indigo will improve the contract that much in consecutive rounds of negotiations. About all we know is if they don’t, the NMB will not do anything about it. Essentially, their whole case is that we’re all STUCK at some # and Indigo isn’t gonna budge above that. We can rearrange how we get that $ but it won’t cost the company any more - it just costs US time in deciding how.
For all the YES voters, I would hope that you do actually CRINGE when you look at this AIP. Being convinced that this is all we’re gonna get shouldnt change the fact that the offer is horrible in comparison. We ARE taking a concession in the scheduling dept by accepting PBS. We ARE getting conditions we’ve had in the past (125%) handed back to us like it’s an improvement. We are, to some degree (which is HIGHLY debatable) still gonna be looked down upon by other pilot groups despite the raise. My only hope that you don’t actually believe the talk about his contract not being that bad. It is. Clearly. Trying to tell/convince yourself of that or anyone else makes us all look bad. To accept it for reasons of thinking you won’t get anything better is one thing - to actually think this is good is another.
To all the “wait and see” voters. I get it. You’re the hopers/wishers. The bullet points are out and outside of a few other conditions that still are to be hammered out (which won’t be fully by the time we vote), the AIP is what it is. You thought process is that you’re hoping that we discover some hidden gem of a condition that is good for us that the company overlooked. While I understand your hope, I’m critical of it. I would give that about 1.5% chance of happening in our favor. Hope if you want to, but hopes don’t make $.
So here we are - about to show the world and ourselves what kind of pilot group we have become. I wasn’t here when bankruptcy/ Republic happened but I can say that was a stout group to be able to maintain most of their industry leading conditions and still exist. I think that group realized that it’s better to stand on their feet and possibly perish than to live on their knees but be assured life. That group has shown us the way and should be our example to follow. Congrats to that group and here’s hoping you vote NO as well to see what else Indigo can do for us...
It’s not the wage. It’s not PBS or the 1.25 above 82 hours or min day or all the other stuff. It all boils down to mental toughness.
For all the No voters, just think that this AIP could be worse then proposed and there would still be yes voters. Why? Simple. They are tired of being so far away from everyone else wage wise that just being closer (albeit still at the bottom) allows them at least some dignity and self respect. They’re also tired of the tricks being played by the company - cancelled vacations, blatant disregard for following contract rules, etc. So to them, what’s a few dollars here and there.
And, they DO have a point. It’s impossible to tell if Indigo will improve the contract that much in consecutive rounds of negotiations. About all we know is if they don’t, the NMB will not do anything about it. Essentially, their whole case is that we’re all STUCK at some # and Indigo isn’t gonna budge above that. We can rearrange how we get that $ but it won’t cost the company any more - it just costs US time in deciding how.
For all the YES voters, I would hope that you do actually CRINGE when you look at this AIP. Being convinced that this is all we’re gonna get shouldnt change the fact that the offer is horrible in comparison. We ARE taking a concession in the scheduling dept by accepting PBS. We ARE getting conditions we’ve had in the past (125%) handed back to us like it’s an improvement. We are, to some degree (which is HIGHLY debatable) still gonna be looked down upon by other pilot groups despite the raise. My only hope that you don’t actually believe the talk about his contract not being that bad. It is. Clearly. Trying to tell/convince yourself of that or anyone else makes us all look bad. To accept it for reasons of thinking you won’t get anything better is one thing - to actually think this is good is another.
To all the “wait and see” voters. I get it. You’re the hopers/wishers. The bullet points are out and outside of a few other conditions that still are to be hammered out (which won’t be fully by the time we vote), the AIP is what it is. You thought process is that you’re hoping that we discover some hidden gem of a condition that is good for us that the company overlooked. While I understand your hope, I’m critical of it. I would give that about 1.5% chance of happening in our favor. Hope if you want to, but hopes don’t make $.
So here we are - about to show the world and ourselves what kind of pilot group we have become. I wasn’t here when bankruptcy/ Republic happened but I can say that was a stout group to be able to maintain most of their industry leading conditions and still exist. I think that group realized that it’s better to stand on their feet and possibly perish than to live on their knees but be assured life. That group has shown us the way and should be our example to follow. Congrats to that group and here’s hoping you vote NO as well to see what else Indigo can do for us...
This is probably the best post here in my opinion.
Have any of you read “Flying the Line” by George E Hopkins? It talks about how our ALPA brothers have fought for every great thing this industry has to offer. They fought for safety, better working conditions, and pay consistent with a professional’s training and skill, and lastly our rights to say “No” when we need to. This deal seals our fate of remaining at the bottom.
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