Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-17-2018, 07:25 PM
#3461
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
The question is Would you give management complete control of PBS and NK credit for vac in exchange for JB pay rates? I think we all know the answer to that question. Thats where the money began to shuffle. IMO were not getting a deal anytime in the foreseeable future that doesn't include PBS and until I see the specifics I can't possibly know if its better or worse than what we have now.
11-17-2018, 07:56 PM
#3462
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 461
Again, ReserveCa with simplistic nonsense. Look man, why don’t you quit while you’re behind. Emotion doesn’t win this. The process is a thinking man’s game. You say BS, you say pay me. The informed understand the process and weigh the pros and cons and accept the reality. But you, continue to stomp your feet, continue to bang your chest.
11-17-2018, 08:09 PM
#3463
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
Again, ReserveCa with simplistic nonsense. Look man, why don’t you quit while you’re behind. Emotion doesn’t win this. The process is a thinking man’s game. You say BS, you say pay me. The informed understand the process and weigh the pros and cons and accept the reality. But you, continue to stomp your feet, continue to bang your chest.
Mgt basically did minimal to no negotiation before. What was it - like 2 years of it? Their intilal offer didn’t really qualify as an offer despite the fact that it was an improvement. It’s not hard to improve upon the lowest rates in the industry - especially when those rates are easily 40% lower than the next highest. So, really, ANY raise, no matter how slight, is an improvement and can be called an “offer.”
However, all of the sudden (last couple of months), management provides a real offer. Why now? Why ever? Why wouldn’t they just ride out current rates until next year? Or 2023? Or until the last pilot retires/walks away and they close the doors? What happened that caused them to now make an offer that is worthy of consideration?
That’s the real question here.
But, whatever the reason, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is that they ARE ready to actually negotiate. Yes? Can we all agree upon that?
If so, then perhaps (humor me) they actually made an offer with more to give just in case. Maybe they actually can afford a higher wage, higher per diem, more retirement and maybe even profit sharing. I mean, they DO want an agreement right?
What’s the harm in seeing just how bad they want it? The worst thing that could happen is we waste a few months...we’ve already waited longer than every other group. Is it really that scary of a proposition? Do we think if we say no the offer will go away or get worse? Is that what we expect of negotiations?
We already know door #1 is LAST place. Don’t you want to see what’s behind door #2?
Last edited by dracir1; 11-17-2018 at 08:35 PM.
11-18-2018, 05:19 AM
#3464
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 227
I honestly don’t get it.
Mgt basically did minimal to no negotiation before. What was it - like 2 years of it? Their intilal offer didn’t really qualify as an offer despite the fact that it was an improvement. It’s not hard to improve upon the lowest rates in the industry - especially when those rates are easily 40% lower than the next highest. So, really, ANY raise, no matter how slight, is an improvement and can be called an “offer.”
However, all of the sudden (last couple of months), management provides a real offer. Why now? Why ever? Why wouldn’t they just ride out current rates until next year? Or 2023? Or until the last pilot retires/walks away and they close the doors? What happened that caused them to now make an offer that is worthy of consideration?
That’s the real question here.
But, whatever the reason, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is that they ARE ready to actually negotiate. Yes? Can we all agree upon that?
If so, then perhaps (humor me) they actually made an offer with more to give just in case. Maybe they actually can afford a higher wage, higher per diem, more retirement and maybe even profit sharing. I mean, they DO want an agreement right?
What’s the harm in seeing just how bad they want it? The worst thing that could happen is we waste a few months...we’ve already waited longer than every other group. Is it really that scary of a proposition? Do we think if we say no the offer will go away or get worse? Is that what we expect of negotiations?
We already know door #1 is LAST place. Don’t you want to see what’s behind door #2?
Mgt basically did minimal to no negotiation before. What was it - like 2 years of it? Their intilal offer didn’t really qualify as an offer despite the fact that it was an improvement. It’s not hard to improve upon the lowest rates in the industry - especially when those rates are easily 40% lower than the next highest. So, really, ANY raise, no matter how slight, is an improvement and can be called an “offer.”
However, all of the sudden (last couple of months), management provides a real offer. Why now? Why ever? Why wouldn’t they just ride out current rates until next year? Or 2023? Or until the last pilot retires/walks away and they close the doors? What happened that caused them to now make an offer that is worthy of consideration?
That’s the real question here.
But, whatever the reason, it doesn’t really matter. What matters is that they ARE ready to actually negotiate. Yes? Can we all agree upon that?
If so, then perhaps (humor me) they actually made an offer with more to give just in case. Maybe they actually can afford a higher wage, higher per diem, more retirement and maybe even profit sharing. I mean, they DO want an agreement right?
What’s the harm in seeing just how bad they want it? The worst thing that could happen is we waste a few months...we’ve already waited longer than every other group. Is it really that scary of a proposition? Do we think if we say no the offer will go away or get worse? Is that what we expect of negotiations?
We already know door #1 is LAST place. Don’t you want to see what’s behind door #2?
11-18-2018, 06:23 AM
#3465
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,411
Again, ReserveCa with simplistic nonsense. Look man, why don’t you quit while you’re behind. Emotion doesn’t win this. The process is a thinking man’s game. You say BS, you say pay me. The informed understand the process and weigh the pros and cons and accept the reality. But you, continue to stomp your feet, continue to bang your chest.
We all get it....your a yes crutch..one of the b cubed...maybe the next asst CP?
Or retirement in the next few weeks?
That’s why retro NOT signing bonus....
11-18-2018, 06:38 AM
#3466
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
If you vote no, this current offer is no longer on the table. If you find out the company won’t come up a nickel, you can’t just go back and say “okay I guess we’ll take your last offer”. More than likely the next package would be somewhat cost neutral to the current offer and you won’t make back what you could’ve had during the time spent negotiating. And it’ll take way longer than 2 months to negotiate. Same deck of cards but just shuffled in a different order. Example would be: you keep line bidding but no longer receive the rigs your NC negotiated. Or you get a couple extra bucks an hour but the 1.25% over 82 goes away. Why don’t you wait and read the language and go to a road show and ask some questions first. If I recall, Southwest voted down TA1 mostly because of loose codeshare language. Things like that are snakes in the grass. See if your TA has any of those. Sometimes you have to vote no. $500 per hour doesn’t mean much when the company can outsource your flying to someone else.
Let’s say the first AIP gets a no. So after a few months, another AIP comes together with, as you mentioned, more here but less somewhere else (same cost to the company). And it gets another no. More time goes by. Same thing again. The company NEVER increases their offer but just shuffles the conditions. And the pilots NEVER say yes.
What then? Pilots lose and the company loses. Company folds? We certainly don’t want that but do they? If they don’t mind that, then why negotiate with us at all?
I think we need to pay attention to the motivations for actions here instead of fear of what could be (but we really don’t know about). And quite frankly, I would think the over 12 year group would be the more resilient having been with this company when it was the highest paid. They know their worth.It seems like there are some others that feel content allowing Indigo to dictate theirs.
It might be better for this company to cease existence then to accept the obvious substandard treatment and contract before us. Spirit had a TRO. But we have LOA 67, have proven the company negotiated in bad fait but STILL took the first AIP that was obviously less? Working a concessionary contract in the past was understandable before. But now, we VOTE IN concessions (PBS) and lower everything else. If you were a Big 3 pilot or Jet Blue or even Allegiant pilot, would you respect us? Or would you laugh?
Not all money is good money. We criticize the company all the time for stepping over a dollar to save a dime. We’re kinda doing the same thing out of fear...
Last edited by dracir1; 11-18-2018 at 06:51 AM.
11-18-2018, 07:02 AM
#3467
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 146
Honestly, I get that. But play this out for me a sec.
Let’s say the first AIP gets a no. So after a few months, another AIP comes together with, as you mentioned, more here but less somewhere else (same cost to the company). And it gets another no. More time goes by. Same thing again. The company NEVER increases their offer but just shuffles the conditions. And the pilots NEVER say yes.
What then? Pilots lose and the company loses. Company folds? We certainly don’t want that but do they? If they don’t mind that, then why negotiate with us at all?
I think we need to pay attention to the motivations for actions here instead of fear of what could be (but we really don’t know about). And quite frankly, I would think the over 12 year group would be the more resilient having been with this company when it was the highest paid. They know their worth.It seems like there are some others that feel content allowing Indigo to dictate theirs.
It might be better for this company to cease existence then to accept the obvious substandard treatment and contract before us. Spirit had a TRO. But we have LOA 67, have proven the company negotiated in bad fait but STILL took the first AIP that was obviously less? Working a concessionary contract in the past was understandable before. But now, we VOTE IN concessions (PBS) and lower everything else. If you were a Big 3 pilot or Jet Blue or even Allegiant pilot, would you respect us? Or would you laugh?
Not all money is good money. We criticize the company all the time for stepping over a dollar to save a dime. We’re kinda doing the same thing out of fear...
Let’s say the first AIP gets a no. So after a few months, another AIP comes together with, as you mentioned, more here but less somewhere else (same cost to the company). And it gets another no. More time goes by. Same thing again. The company NEVER increases their offer but just shuffles the conditions. And the pilots NEVER say yes.
What then? Pilots lose and the company loses. Company folds? We certainly don’t want that but do they? If they don’t mind that, then why negotiate with us at all?
I think we need to pay attention to the motivations for actions here instead of fear of what could be (but we really don’t know about). And quite frankly, I would think the over 12 year group would be the more resilient having been with this company when it was the highest paid. They know their worth.It seems like there are some others that feel content allowing Indigo to dictate theirs.
It might be better for this company to cease existence then to accept the obvious substandard treatment and contract before us. Spirit had a TRO. But we have LOA 67, have proven the company negotiated in bad fait but STILL took the first AIP that was obviously less? Working a concessionary contract in the past was understandable before. But now, we VOTE IN concessions (PBS) and lower everything else. If you were a Big 3 pilot or Jet Blue or even Allegiant pilot, would you respect us? Or would you laugh?
Not all money is good money. We criticize the company all the time for stepping over a dollar to save a dime. We’re kinda doing the same thing out of fear...
11-18-2018, 07:07 AM
#3468
Banned
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 330
Honestly, I get that. But play this out for me a sec.
Let’s say the first AIP gets a no. So after a few months, another AIP comes together with, as you mentioned, more here but less somewhere else (same cost to the company). And it gets another no. More time goes by. Same thing again. The company NEVER increases their offer but just shuffles the conditions. And the pilots NEVER say yes.
What then? Pilots lose and the company loses. Company folds? We certainly don’t want that but do they? If they don’t mind that, then why negotiate with us at all?
I think we need to pay attention to the motivations for actions here instead of fear of what could be (but we really don’t know about). And quite frankly, I would think the over 12 year group would be the more resilient having been with this company when it was the highest paid. They know their worth.It seems like there are some others that feel content allowing Indigo to dictate theirs.
It might be better for this company to cease existence then to accept the obvious substandard treatment and contract before us. Spirit had a TRO. But we have LOA 67, have proven the company negotiated in bad fait but STILL took the first AIP that was obviously less? Working a concessionary contract in the past was understandable before. But now, we VOTE IN concessions (PBS) and lower everything else. If you were a Big 3 pilot or Jet Blue or even Allegiant pilot, would you respect us? Or would you laugh?
Not all money is good money. We criticize the company all the time for stepping over a dollar to save a dime. We’re kinda doing the same thing out of fear...
Let’s say the first AIP gets a no. So after a few months, another AIP comes together with, as you mentioned, more here but less somewhere else (same cost to the company). And it gets another no. More time goes by. Same thing again. The company NEVER increases their offer but just shuffles the conditions. And the pilots NEVER say yes.
What then? Pilots lose and the company loses. Company folds? We certainly don’t want that but do they? If they don’t mind that, then why negotiate with us at all?
I think we need to pay attention to the motivations for actions here instead of fear of what could be (but we really don’t know about). And quite frankly, I would think the over 12 year group would be the more resilient having been with this company when it was the highest paid. They know their worth.It seems like there are some others that feel content allowing Indigo to dictate theirs.
It might be better for this company to cease existence then to accept the obvious substandard treatment and contract before us. Spirit had a TRO. But we have LOA 67, have proven the company negotiated in bad fait but STILL took the first AIP that was obviously less? Working a concessionary contract in the past was understandable before. But now, we VOTE IN concessions (PBS) and lower everything else. If you were a Big 3 pilot or Jet Blue or even Allegiant pilot, would you respect us? Or would you laugh?
Not all money is good money. We criticize the company all the time for stepping over a dollar to save a dime. We’re kinda doing the same thing out of fear...
11-18-2018, 07:42 AM
#3470
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 461
That's crediting over 120 hours then 1.25% over 82 to get Industry average pay.
With our amazing enhancing company and union collaborated industry leading undefined PBS system.
NO
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