Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-11-2018, 09:49 AM
#3181
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,240
No dog in this fight but it's fairly easy to google business sites that give company info:
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/s...ivcapId=335578
Company Overview of Frontier Group Holdings, Inc.
SnapshotPeople
OverviewBoard MembersCommittees
Executive Profile
Barry L. Biffle
Chief Executive Officer, President and Director, Frontier Group Holdings, Inc.
Age 46. Total Calculated Compensation. $5,744,490 This person is connected to 3 Board Members in 3 organization across 5 different industries.
See Board Relationships
......
Those are 2016 numbers btw.
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/s...ivcapId=335578
Company Overview of Frontier Group Holdings, Inc.
SnapshotPeople
OverviewBoard MembersCommittees
Executive Profile
Barry L. Biffle
Chief Executive Officer, President and Director, Frontier Group Holdings, Inc.
Age 46. Total Calculated Compensation. $5,744,490 This person is connected to 3 Board Members in 3 organization across 5 different industries.
See Board Relationships
......
Those are 2016 numbers btw.
11-11-2018, 09:58 AM
#3182
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: A320
Posts: 293
What doea it take to get a no to a yes? No pbs? An extra $20/HR? Profit sharing? Better LTD? More vacation/personal days/hrs? Everything?
The truth of the matter is that in a negotiation there is give and take. One could simply sum everything up as one number....$150 million a year, or any number that equals the cost of total pilot compensation. From that number the NC has to put a value on everything negotiated and the pilot priorities and come up with a contract offer. Part of the difficulties with the process is clearly not everyone benifits equally from the same parts of the contract. As a Jr person and a commuter, who actually likes dats off, I have never benefited from the current vacation policey like some. I do get screwed by the DH all the time though. I don't have kids so I do not get screwed by the current healthcare though. But being jr I get the crap 10hr three days and the 5hr duty limit will be nice.
The point being is some think any amount of pay with pbs is a bad deal. I flew under pbs at OO and didn't have a problem for the most part and was told that system was not even a good system. However I did Ushually get everything I wanted and the pilot to pilot trade was much better than our current one. I am sure there were some folks at OO that hated it.
The big question. Is how long are you willing to wait to get more money? If the company came back in a few months with an additional 5 million is that enough? What if it was to go towards better healthcare or 1% more in retirement or an additional $15/HR in all rates? But, what if it took a year to get all three? We would be flying with our current rates losing money compared to the proposed AIP (not complete yet) and would almost certainly never make up that money over the course of the contract.
The bottom line is not everyone is going to be 100% happy, not even management. That is the essence of a compromise. As someone posted before if the cobtract is approved with 51% its a management win. With 100% a pilot win. 75% we both win.
Now flame away and let your rage reign! ( not rain but that is a whole other thread)
The truth of the matter is that in a negotiation there is give and take. One could simply sum everything up as one number....$150 million a year, or any number that equals the cost of total pilot compensation. From that number the NC has to put a value on everything negotiated and the pilot priorities and come up with a contract offer. Part of the difficulties with the process is clearly not everyone benifits equally from the same parts of the contract. As a Jr person and a commuter, who actually likes dats off, I have never benefited from the current vacation policey like some. I do get screwed by the DH all the time though. I don't have kids so I do not get screwed by the current healthcare though. But being jr I get the crap 10hr three days and the 5hr duty limit will be nice.
The point being is some think any amount of pay with pbs is a bad deal. I flew under pbs at OO and didn't have a problem for the most part and was told that system was not even a good system. However I did Ushually get everything I wanted and the pilot to pilot trade was much better than our current one. I am sure there were some folks at OO that hated it.
The big question. Is how long are you willing to wait to get more money? If the company came back in a few months with an additional 5 million is that enough? What if it was to go towards better healthcare or 1% more in retirement or an additional $15/HR in all rates? But, what if it took a year to get all three? We would be flying with our current rates losing money compared to the proposed AIP (not complete yet) and would almost certainly never make up that money over the course of the contract.
The bottom line is not everyone is going to be 100% happy, not even management. That is the essence of a compromise. As someone posted before if the cobtract is approved with 51% its a management win. With 100% a pilot win. 75% we both win.
Now flame away and let your rage reign! ( not rain but that is a whole other thread)
What do we hope to achieve by dragging this thing out? The new hire flood gate is now open since the NC released the details. Vote Yes take your cash and then leave if you think we are still at the bottom.
11-11-2018, 10:21 AM
#3184
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
What doea it take to get a no to a yes? No pbs? An extra $20/HR? Profit sharing? Better LTD? More vacation/personal days/hrs? Everything?
The truth of the matter is that in a negotiation there is give and take. One could simply sum everything up as one number....$150 million a year, or any number that equals the cost of total pilot compensation. From that number the NC has to put a value on everything negotiated and the pilot priorities and come up with a contract offer. Part of the difficulties with the process is clearly not everyone benifits equally from the same parts of the contract. As a Jr person and a commuter, who actually likes dats off, I have never benefited from the current vacation policey like some. I do get screwed by the DH all the time though. I don't have kids so I do not get screwed by the current healthcare though. But being jr I get the crap 10hr three days and the 5hr duty limit will be nice.
The point being is some think any amount of pay with pbs is a bad deal. I flew under pbs at OO and didn't have a problem for the most part and was told that system was not even a good system. However I did Ushually get everything I wanted and the pilot to pilot trade was much better than our current one. I am sure there were some folks at OO that hated it.
The big question. Is how long are you willing to wait to get more money? If the company came back in a few months with an additional 5 million is that enough? What if it was to go towards better healthcare or 1% more in retirement or an additional $15/HR in all rates? But, what if it took a year to get all three? We would be flying with our current rates losing money compared to the proposed AIP (not complete yet) and would almost certainly never make up that money over the course of the contract.
The bottom line is not everyone is going to be 100% happy, not even management. That is the essence of a compromise. As someone posted before if the cobtract is approved with 51% its a management win. With 100% a pilot win. 75% we both win.
Now flame away and let your rage reign! ( not rain but that is a whole other thread)
The truth of the matter is that in a negotiation there is give and take. One could simply sum everything up as one number....$150 million a year, or any number that equals the cost of total pilot compensation. From that number the NC has to put a value on everything negotiated and the pilot priorities and come up with a contract offer. Part of the difficulties with the process is clearly not everyone benifits equally from the same parts of the contract. As a Jr person and a commuter, who actually likes dats off, I have never benefited from the current vacation policey like some. I do get screwed by the DH all the time though. I don't have kids so I do not get screwed by the current healthcare though. But being jr I get the crap 10hr three days and the 5hr duty limit will be nice.
The point being is some think any amount of pay with pbs is a bad deal. I flew under pbs at OO and didn't have a problem for the most part and was told that system was not even a good system. However I did Ushually get everything I wanted and the pilot to pilot trade was much better than our current one. I am sure there were some folks at OO that hated it.
The big question. Is how long are you willing to wait to get more money? If the company came back in a few months with an additional 5 million is that enough? What if it was to go towards better healthcare or 1% more in retirement or an additional $15/HR in all rates? But, what if it took a year to get all three? We would be flying with our current rates losing money compared to the proposed AIP (not complete yet) and would almost certainly never make up that money over the course of the contract.
The bottom line is not everyone is going to be 100% happy, not even management. That is the essence of a compromise. As someone posted before if the cobtract is approved with 51% its a management win. With 100% a pilot win. 75% we both win.
Now flame away and let your rage reign! ( not rain but that is a whole other thread)
But the one point you’re leaving out is the question of relativity vs absolute. ANY raise given or ANY increase in contract language that benefits us is just that - an absolute increase. If the company gave $1 more per hour (and left the current contract provisions in place) it’d be an Increase. But would that be enough for you? What if it was a 40% increase across the board? 60%? 75%? How do any of us know how much is enough?
That’s where the relativity kicks in. Specifically, how does that INCREASE compare relatively to what others also doing what you do receive? More important, why should you consider receiving less? Are you less of a pilot? Do you carry less passengers? Did you do something that indicates you’re not worth a pay rate that is at least close to your counterparts at other airlines? There are all kinds of ways to determine that worth (average of all the carriers salaries makes the most sense to me), but this proposal doesn’t come close to that. Spirit had a restraining order in place while negotiating and their contract, when you include the 321 override they all get that we don’t, is slightly better.
As far as the cost to the company, quite frankly, shouldn’t be our concern - as long as the company makes a fair profit, it’s win-win. There’s enough $ to go around for everyone. Plus, the increased costs the company has to pay pales in comparison to the amount of money they’ve made off paying us so much less for so long.
But that’s just right now with this economy and with these conditions. This contract that we sign will be for the next 5-8 years and is the best negotiating environment for pilots ever. We MUST get as much as we can now. Waiting a year or longer is worth the increase that will be in place for now on...w have no idea if/when conditions will change.
Last edited by dracir1; 11-11-2018 at 10:36 AM.
11-11-2018, 10:45 AM
#3186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,183
Im going to try and breakdown the pro's and cons of our LTD vs. NK because there seems to be some misunderstanding. If I miss something or get something wrong someone fell free to correct with FACTS and not emotion please. Ours is 8000 theirs 5000 grand. Pro's to NK vs ours. Own occupation, ability to buy up to 15,000 through the company. Pro's to our deal, 8000 is substantially higher, and ability to change taxable during open enrollment or life changing event. To me thats a pretty nice loophole for us with no downside. If I know that Im having major surgery (knee replacement for example) Im potentially putting it off a few months and changing my benefit in nov. I don't think NK can do this but Im not 100% on that?
A few misunderstanding with NK structure. You can't buy up to 15 unless its 60% of your W2 (the benefit is 180 grand at 15). That means 300 grand. Unless your flying a ton thats pretty much top captains. So in reality I would be surprised if there were more than 100 pilots at 15 grand.
A few misunderstandings about our LTD. You can buy own occupation up to 15 grand on the open market so in theory your buy up cost will be higher than NK (their cost is lower due to being in a pool) but your buying up only 7 compared to their 10. I have to believe thats close to a wash.
After having conversations with more than one of our pilots that have been on LTD for years their not concerned at all of getting kicked off. However, A few thing do happen at the two year mark. First, Hartford makes you apply for ss disability. If your eligible for that it comes out of the 8 grand and in the end you still get 8 grand. Second they do a stress test. If they believe you can make 60% of your current salary based on guarantee and pay rate they can kick you off. Having said that this hasn't happened yet and that 60% number will be substantially higher.
In the end I have no issues at all with LTD after they fixed the taxability of it. Were arguing over dollars that can be fixed on the open market. Personally ill do 8 grand, keep it tax free and not buy up.
A few misunderstanding with NK structure. You can't buy up to 15 unless its 60% of your W2 (the benefit is 180 grand at 15). That means 300 grand. Unless your flying a ton thats pretty much top captains. So in reality I would be surprised if there were more than 100 pilots at 15 grand.
A few misunderstandings about our LTD. You can buy own occupation up to 15 grand on the open market so in theory your buy up cost will be higher than NK (their cost is lower due to being in a pool) but your buying up only 7 compared to their 10. I have to believe thats close to a wash.
After having conversations with more than one of our pilots that have been on LTD for years their not concerned at all of getting kicked off. However, A few thing do happen at the two year mark. First, Hartford makes you apply for ss disability. If your eligible for that it comes out of the 8 grand and in the end you still get 8 grand. Second they do a stress test. If they believe you can make 60% of your current salary based on guarantee and pay rate they can kick you off. Having said that this hasn't happened yet and that 60% number will be substantially higher.
In the end I have no issues at all with LTD after they fixed the taxability of it. Were arguing over dollars that can be fixed on the open market. Personally ill do 8 grand, keep it tax free and not buy up.
11-11-2018, 12:05 PM
#3188
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
To me there’s no offer till I see a good offer. Funny how there’s no vacation cancellations in arguably one of the busiest travel seasons. Maybe October might be a little busier.
“Good will” may not have any value, but “BAD will” sure does!!!
WINTER IS COMING!
1000% READY TO STRIKE!!!
“Good will” may not have any value, but “BAD will” sure does!!!
WINTER IS COMING!
1000% READY TO STRIKE!!!
Agree!
........
11-11-2018, 02:47 PM
#3190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,490
Concern with our leverage
I was recently in the school house and had an opportunity to chat with some guys who work there. They told me that the number of new pilot applicants has gone through the roof starting the day after the first framework email came out.
I'm assuming that since the AIP details are out, the number of new applicants is closer to a flood. As we know, they successfully filled the November class and that was before we even had a framework agreement. I have no doubt that they will fill classes now.
I'm afraid our leverage is gone now. We all know that the ONLY reason the company came to the table was for hiring purposes. At this point, I'm scared that our leverage is totally gone, and its important to understand that. The situation is totally different now than it was a month ago.
Please do not take what I'm saying as arguing for a Yes vote. I am unhappy with this TA. I believe that we could have and should have done better. We really should have beat Spirits contact handily, and we have not. My concern is that if we vote this down, and our leverage is gone, the company just isn't going to move. At least not for a long time. The amount of time it will take until the company can't fill classes again will be lengthy. I'm assuming they got hundreds of fresh applicants in the past week.
That being said, it may very well be worth the wait. I don't know. I'm not going to pretend to know how long it would take to reach a TA2. But I think it will take until classes thin out again.
In some ways I feel like Indigo (or Biffle) totally out smarted us. They treated us like garbage, profited off our backs until they absolutely couldn't hire. Then they got our NC to reach a sub par TA. And in doing so, they instantly fixed their problems. Classes are full now. Our leverage is gone and they won.
These guys seriously suck at running a reliable airline, but they kick ass at making money. They secured the largest airbus order of all time, and with it locked in the cheapest price ever paid for new Airbii. And now they are going to lock us into a bottom of the industry pay for the next 7 to 8 years.
Indigo/Biffle might just be much smarter than we usually give them credit for.
I'm assuming that since the AIP details are out, the number of new applicants is closer to a flood. As we know, they successfully filled the November class and that was before we even had a framework agreement. I have no doubt that they will fill classes now.
I'm afraid our leverage is gone now. We all know that the ONLY reason the company came to the table was for hiring purposes. At this point, I'm scared that our leverage is totally gone, and its important to understand that. The situation is totally different now than it was a month ago.
Please do not take what I'm saying as arguing for a Yes vote. I am unhappy with this TA. I believe that we could have and should have done better. We really should have beat Spirits contact handily, and we have not. My concern is that if we vote this down, and our leverage is gone, the company just isn't going to move. At least not for a long time. The amount of time it will take until the company can't fill classes again will be lengthy. I'm assuming they got hundreds of fresh applicants in the past week.
That being said, it may very well be worth the wait. I don't know. I'm not going to pretend to know how long it would take to reach a TA2. But I think it will take until classes thin out again.
In some ways I feel like Indigo (or Biffle) totally out smarted us. They treated us like garbage, profited off our backs until they absolutely couldn't hire. Then they got our NC to reach a sub par TA. And in doing so, they instantly fixed their problems. Classes are full now. Our leverage is gone and they won.
These guys seriously suck at running a reliable airline, but they kick ass at making money. They secured the largest airbus order of all time, and with it locked in the cheapest price ever paid for new Airbii. And now they are going to lock us into a bottom of the industry pay for the next 7 to 8 years.
Indigo/Biffle might just be much smarter than we usually give them credit for.
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