Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-10-2018, 10:19 AM
#3141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
I thought we ta’d 5 hour min day avg. How did that change to min credit period but we couldn’t change other ta’d items. There’s a lot to cringe at. PBS, LTD, Retirement, Just look at the slope. 5-6 year captains won’t get our two year old ask til 2021. And, they will not even reach our current ask ever. 12yr captains in 2021 will be at 6 yr capt pay for jet blue. They will “catch up” in 2023, but 11 yr captains will be at 7 yr jet blue rates. Yet the first officers will get our two year old ask almost immediately at DOS. The rates are set up to look semi palatable and appeal to the very top and very bottom of the pilot group but it’s lipstick on a pig. The majority of this pilot group will most likely be in the low to middle capt group in this scale in 2023 and it is severely lacking. And that’s just the pay rates. The MEC has just joined the Frontier recruiting team and gave them reprieve until we shoot this down. This should’ve never made it to the pilots. It is definitely against any promise made to the pilot group and totally against any of the recent surveys. Any delay in getting a fair deal, after this Biffle winning “deal” gets thrown back, lies squarely on the shoulders of the MEC. NMB not doing their jobs doesn’t mean the MEC doesn’t have to do theirs. I’m guessing they were out of the room when the current president of ALPA said we aren’t going to accept a discount contract. I bet the Dec class is overfilled! Leverage isn’t there forever but we had it, and you used it for this!!!
100% DISPLEASED
100% DISPLEASED
11-10-2018, 10:56 AM
#3144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 418
For me, Quality of Life is more important than the pay. I know there are many that work their vacation to make a big credit month. I take the vacation. With our current line bidding system, I can triple the amount of days I get off. I can easily turn 7 vacation days into 3 weeks off.
After doing the same thing for each of 4 different vacation periods, I can essentially get about 12 weeks off. That's three months of paid vacation.
We will lose this ability if we switch to PBS. That is why the company wants PBS. That's why PBS is a CONCESSION.
This proposed agreement doesn't bring nearly enough to accept the concession that is PBS. This proposed agreement doesn't even get us anywhere near industry average. It doesn't bring us into the pattern.
There was a time when Frontier pilots were the highest paid Airbus 320 operators in the USA. We are now the lowest. We deserve more.
If we were going to accept an agreement like this, why wouldn't we have done it 7 months ago? It is less than our original ask and it includes PBS.
Contact your NC and MEC representatives. Encourage them to vote NO before this ever even becomes a TA and is put before the membership. The sooner this gets shut down, the quicker they can get it corrected and bring us a worthy agreement.
Last to last is NOT good enough!
After doing the same thing for each of 4 different vacation periods, I can essentially get about 12 weeks off. That's three months of paid vacation.
We will lose this ability if we switch to PBS. That is why the company wants PBS. That's why PBS is a CONCESSION.
This proposed agreement doesn't bring nearly enough to accept the concession that is PBS. This proposed agreement doesn't even get us anywhere near industry average. It doesn't bring us into the pattern.
There was a time when Frontier pilots were the highest paid Airbus 320 operators in the USA. We are now the lowest. We deserve more.
If we were going to accept an agreement like this, why wouldn't we have done it 7 months ago? It is less than our original ask and it includes PBS.
Contact your NC and MEC representatives. Encourage them to vote NO before this ever even becomes a TA and is put before the membership. The sooner this gets shut down, the quicker they can get it corrected and bring us a worthy agreement.
Last to last is NOT good enough!
11-10-2018, 11:14 AM
#3145
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,666
All this talk that we will lose our vacation with PBS, could someone explain to me why they believe that? I can see losing a little value with only 35 credit hours per week, but with the ability to drop down to 60 hours 6 months a year, why can’t we get 3 weeks off for 1 week still?
11-10-2018, 11:24 AM
#3146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,464
If it's a spirit merger, that is just not the case though. With other airlines, sure. but other airlines will bring a much larger contract as well
11-10-2018, 11:33 AM
#3147
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
All this talk that we will lose our vacation with PBS, could someone explain to me why they believe that? I can see losing a little value with only 35 credit hours per week, but with the ability to drop down to 60 hours 6 months a year, why can’t we get 3 weeks off for 1 week still?
Second, with line bidding it’s possible to take an 8 day block of vacation and drop 9 days of flying (worth 49 hours). I know because I did it earlier this year. That line was worth 92 hours of pay and had 18 days off in a row. After the slide it was a 92 hour line with 22 days off. With PBS you may get the same days off (depending on trip availability at your seniority) but you’ll get 75 hours of credit (admittedly this is an assumption on my part). I can’t imagine based on everything else that they’d make a vacation month with 22 days off worth anything other than MMG.
3 weeks in a row off is tough for line bidders without good seniority. Let’s say with PBS you have an 8 day block of vacation. That’s 40 hours. You’ll still need to come up with 35 to get a 75 hour line (could be 2 four day trips pretty easily for mid seniority pilots here). Assuming you only have to build a line to 60, what if you want to work through your vacation? Would the first 15 hours you pick up be free? How was it at ASA?
11-10-2018, 12:09 PM
#3148
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,666
First of all you’re making assumptions by saying that we can drop to 60 hours. Maybe we can, maybe we can’t.
Second, with line bidding it’s possible to take an 8 day block of vacation and drop 9 days of flying (worth 49 hours). I know because I did it earlier this year. That line was worth 92 hours of pay and had 18 days off in a row. After the slide it was a 92 hour line with 22 days off. With PBS you may get the same days off (depending on trip availability at your seniority) but you’ll get 75 hours of credit (admittedly this is an assumption on my part). I can’t imagine based on everything else that they’d make a vacation month with 22 days off worth anything other than MMG.
3 weeks in a row off is tough for line bidders without good seniority. Let’s say with PBS you have an 8 day block of vacation. That’s 40 hours. You’ll still need to come up with 35 to get a 75 hour line (could be 2 four day trips pretty easily for mid seniority pilots here). Assuming you only have to build a line to 60, what if you want to work through your vacation? Would the first 15 hours you pick up be free? How was it at ASA?
Second, with line bidding it’s possible to take an 8 day block of vacation and drop 9 days of flying (worth 49 hours). I know because I did it earlier this year. That line was worth 92 hours of pay and had 18 days off in a row. After the slide it was a 92 hour line with 22 days off. With PBS you may get the same days off (depending on trip availability at your seniority) but you’ll get 75 hours of credit (admittedly this is an assumption on my part). I can’t imagine based on everything else that they’d make a vacation month with 22 days off worth anything other than MMG.
3 weeks in a row off is tough for line bidders without good seniority. Let’s say with PBS you have an 8 day block of vacation. That’s 40 hours. You’ll still need to come up with 35 to get a 75 hour line (could be 2 four day trips pretty easily for mid seniority pilots here). Assuming you only have to build a line to 60, what if you want to work through your vacation? Would the first 15 hours you pick up be free? How was it at ASA?
60 hours for 6 months is in there, for some reason they didn’t put it in the email, so no assumption on my part.
I imagine the software will still build you a line to at least 75, but you’ll have the option to drop down to 60 during DOT. That way if you do want to double dip vacation you’re not working the first 15 for free. It does put those wanting to drop to 60 at the mercy of the DDL/DAG though.
I get it, 3 week off will cost you some pay compared to what we have now but it still seems pretty doable.
11-10-2018, 12:09 PM
#3149
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,411
All this talk that we will lose our vacation with PBS, could someone explain to me why they believe that? I can see losing a little value with only 35 credit hours per week, but with the ability to drop down to 60 hours 6 months a year, why can’t we get 3 weeks off for 1 week still?
The company played the cancelled vacation card (in retaliation) so it needs to be fixed.
Going forward any cancelled vac must be offered voluntarily at 150%. THEN any involuntary cancellations must be paid at 200% on addition to all the existing language ie : refunds
Mgmnt lack of planning / staffing is not a line pilot problem.
11-10-2018, 12:55 PM
#3150
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Slice and dice this all you want folks, but there’s always a realistic limit of credit hours you can make in a year and have a decent quality of life. Times that by our AIP rate and the get crap. That simple.
And this whole working your vacation plan fits right into Managements plan squeezing more out of you without them hiring more people. It’s a sucker play.
And this whole working your vacation plan fits right into Managements plan squeezing more out of you without them hiring more people. It’s a sucker play.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
