Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-09-2018, 08:48 AM
#3031
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: A319/A320/A321 CA
Posts: 363
I was talking with some folks from the school house yesterday. They said that in the last week (since the framework email) the number of new applicants has gone through the roof.
As soon as an actual AIP is reached and posted online, we will have so many new applicants that our leverage will effectively be gone. I suppose this is par for the course, but not something I really thought much about until now.
Here's to hoping the AIP is satisfactory.
As soon as an actual AIP is reached and posted online, we will have so many new applicants that our leverage will effectively be gone. I suppose this is par for the course, but not something I really thought much about until now.
Here's to hoping the AIP is satisfactory.
Once the AIP bullet points are out, the pilot group will vote with their mouths before they do so with a ballot. If you are not pleased with the AIP, let your elected reps know your thoughts. Shoot them an email. They will be the first to vote on the actual Tentative Agreement. It must pass the LEC reps before going to a general membership vote.
That pool of people will dry up again quickly if the TA never gets past our union and we’re sent back to the negotiating table. So I don’t believe all leverage is lost, just stalled.
11-09-2018, 09:02 AM
#3032
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 24
I think the last some-odd 40 pages of posts on this thread can be summed up as some form of:
* PBS can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* L-Bidding can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* No, your the jerk!
* Let me waste my time writing a post explaining that we are wasting our time talking about this before the language has been revealed.
Just having fun
* PBS can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* L-Bidding can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* No, your the jerk!
* Let me waste my time writing a post explaining that we are wasting our time talking about this before the language has been revealed.
Just having fun
11-09-2018, 09:54 AM
#3033
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 687
I think the last some-odd 40 pages of posts on this thread can be summed up as some form of:
* PBS can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* L-Bidding can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* No, your the jerk!
* Let me waste my time writing a post explaining that we are wasting our time talking about this before the language has been revealed.
Just having fun
* PBS can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* L-Bidding can be really cool but can be really crappy. Depends. Let me elaborate by rephrasing the last 10 posts on it.
* No, your the jerk!
* Let me waste my time writing a post explaining that we are wasting our time talking about this before the language has been revealed.
Just having fun
11-09-2018, 10:11 AM
#3035
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,348
This is really scary.
If you were a fry cook at Burger King and you worked more days a week, got half the pay, worked harder, paid more for your healthcare, retirement was much less and basically had much less QoL than a McDonalds fry cook, would you agree with a 40% pay increase that STILL had you getting paid less and decreased your QoL even more?
Frontier pilots - you are NOT worth less than Delta pilots. Or United, American, Spirit, Jet Blue or Virgin. None of us are. We all fly the same equipment through the same skies to roughly the same destinations. Our one major difference is that WE fly more red eyes than most others. Yet, we’re considering VOTING IN / agreeing with less compensation than all those carriers? Less pay. Less QoL. Less per diem. Less retirement. And now, potentially less flexibility with scheduling. Really?
If the package that is presented is above industry standard across the board, then the vote will take care of itself. But I can’t believe anyone is really thinking that’s what will be presented. We already know our original ask was too low - best way to increase it is to vote no and go back to the table.
I’m sure the NC will say they gave their best effort - what else are they supposed to say (that they could’ve done better)? They’ve done a good job so far, it was our fault in the first place for having such a low original ask. I didn’t think the company was going to negotiate with us at all - it’s apparent they want this to work. This is the best negotiating environment we’ll probably ever see. Let’s let our NC go back and get what we deserve.
If you were a fry cook at Burger King and you worked more days a week, got half the pay, worked harder, paid more for your healthcare, retirement was much less and basically had much less QoL than a McDonalds fry cook, would you agree with a 40% pay increase that STILL had you getting paid less and decreased your QoL even more?
Frontier pilots - you are NOT worth less than Delta pilots. Or United, American, Spirit, Jet Blue or Virgin. None of us are. We all fly the same equipment through the same skies to roughly the same destinations. Our one major difference is that WE fly more red eyes than most others. Yet, we’re considering VOTING IN / agreeing with less compensation than all those carriers? Less pay. Less QoL. Less per diem. Less retirement. And now, potentially less flexibility with scheduling. Really?
If the package that is presented is above industry standard across the board, then the vote will take care of itself. But I can’t believe anyone is really thinking that’s what will be presented. We already know our original ask was too low - best way to increase it is to vote no and go back to the table.
I’m sure the NC will say they gave their best effort - what else are they supposed to say (that they could’ve done better)? They’ve done a good job so far, it was our fault in the first place for having such a low original ask. I didn’t think the company was going to negotiate with us at all - it’s apparent they want this to work. This is the best negotiating environment we’ll probably ever see. Let’s let our NC go back and get what we deserve.
My guess, your current scale was low, they will offer you a 40% raise, you will still be below average, and "trade" vacation drop for PBS. Hopefully you can get something better.
11-09-2018, 10:16 AM
#3036
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: A319/A320/A321 CA
Posts: 363
The lawsuit you are referring to is the one brought by our union against the company, in federal court (northern district of Illinois), for continuing to bargain in bad faith after having been found guilty of doing so by a neutral arbitrator.
That’s not to say that the lawsuit won’t be dropped on the contingent that a new CBA is signed.
11-09-2018, 10:36 AM
#3037
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 124
Right or wrong, the NMB looks at a the the airlines and said, it is normal for the cook at Ruth's Chris to make more than the cook at McDonald's. At NK the NMB said that we were getting the highest percentage raise in history at 35%, so we have to be happy. Nevermind that said raise still kept us well below average. Arbitration at Alaska was the same.
My guess, your current scale was low, they will offer you a 40% raise, you will still be below average, and "trade" vacation drop for PBS. Hopefully you can get something better.
My guess, your current scale was low, they will offer you a 40% raise, you will still be below average, and "trade" vacation drop for PBS. Hopefully you can get something better.
11-09-2018, 10:45 AM
#3038
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,183
[QUOTE=LakeshoreFlyer;2705462]Hi Silver,
Negative. ExpressJet had line bidding around that time period. They introduced PBS using the SmartPref bidding system for secondary line construction somewhere around 2013. It was a terrible PBS system that routinely would restrict the bid award of even the number 1 bidder. In simple terms, if you were in the ‘restricted goup’ (determined by how all pilots bid) then your award was contingent upon not only what you bid, and what people senior to you bid, but also what people junior to you bid. Their fancy word was globalization which meant your preferences were sacrificed for the overal build. You can even bid a certain trip, which was awarded to someone junior to you who didn’t bid it, and you couldn’t grieve it because you were part of the Global Solution. (This assuming all other illegalities were complied with)
What you describe about putting vacation after award is technically possible to achieve, but totally defeats one of the main purposes of PBS. No Company will ever allow that to happen. Never has, never will. That’s a major reason why some guys who get three weeks off in a row every quarter look at PBS as a major concession.[/QUOTE
It is my understanding this actually does happen under NK PBS. Your vacation drops trips and your paid a credit based on longevity. Lets say you drop two four days worth 40 credit. They come off your schedule and your payed a credit for them. Usually less credit than their worth (year 1-5 your at 2 vac periods and 56 credit so your applying 28 credit losing 12) again depending on how much vac is being applied. This does allow for large blocks of time off but results in less credit than we are used to. I expect this to be the way our PBS is structured. Because if their going to build around my 7 days before awarding me my line thats a definite no. Waiting for language.
Negative. ExpressJet had line bidding around that time period. They introduced PBS using the SmartPref bidding system for secondary line construction somewhere around 2013. It was a terrible PBS system that routinely would restrict the bid award of even the number 1 bidder. In simple terms, if you were in the ‘restricted goup’ (determined by how all pilots bid) then your award was contingent upon not only what you bid, and what people senior to you bid, but also what people junior to you bid. Their fancy word was globalization which meant your preferences were sacrificed for the overal build. You can even bid a certain trip, which was awarded to someone junior to you who didn’t bid it, and you couldn’t grieve it because you were part of the Global Solution. (This assuming all other illegalities were complied with)
What you describe about putting vacation after award is technically possible to achieve, but totally defeats one of the main purposes of PBS. No Company will ever allow that to happen. Never has, never will. That’s a major reason why some guys who get three weeks off in a row every quarter look at PBS as a major concession.[/QUOTE
It is my understanding this actually does happen under NK PBS. Your vacation drops trips and your paid a credit based on longevity. Lets say you drop two four days worth 40 credit. They come off your schedule and your payed a credit for them. Usually less credit than their worth (year 1-5 your at 2 vac periods and 56 credit so your applying 28 credit losing 12) again depending on how much vac is being applied. This does allow for large blocks of time off but results in less credit than we are used to. I expect this to be the way our PBS is structured. Because if their going to build around my 7 days before awarding me my line thats a definite no. Waiting for language.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 11-09-2018 at 11:04 AM.
11-09-2018, 10:49 AM
#3039
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,442
Right or wrong, the NMB looks at a the the airlines and said, it is normal for the cook at Ruth's Chris to make more than the cook at McDonald's. At NK the NMB said that we were getting the highest percentage raise in history at 35%, so we have to be happy. Nevermind that said raise still kept us well below average. Arbitration at Alaska was the same.
My guess, your current scale was low, they will offer you a 40% raise, you will still be below average, and "trade" vacation drop for PBS. Hopefully you can get something better.
My guess, your current scale was low, they will offer you a 40% raise, you will still be below average, and "trade" vacation drop for PBS. Hopefully you can get something better.
The cook at Ruth’s Chris is cooking different meals and is responsible for a much more complicated menu. That cook has more education in terms of how to prepare meals, set a menu, etc. Airbus pilots are pretty much all the same - same education, skill level, etc.
But I do get your point.
Despite that, the NMB doesn’t dictate contract content - their job is to decide if the content is reasonable for purposes of determining an impasse (and therefore release). They have shown they aren’t willing to do that regardless of how good or crappy the content may be deemed.
Market forces are what are in play here wrt content. Just how much is Indigo willing to pay to be able to expand and make more $ in the longer run.
There’s been much speculation about what has been written in the last few weeks here in APC. Part of why I continue is motivation for pilots to remember our worth. WE determine it.
Last edited by dracir1; 11-09-2018 at 11:25 AM.
11-09-2018, 11:05 AM
#3040
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,348
Couple of issues with your example...
The cook at Ruth’s Chris is cooking different meals and is responsible for a much more complicated menu. That cook has more education in terms of how to prepare meals, set a menu, etc.
Airbus pilots are pretty much all the same - same education, skill level, etc.
But I do get your point.
Despite that, the NMB doesn’t dictate contract content - there job is to decide if the content is reasonable for purposes of determining an impasse (and therefore release). They have shown they aren’t willing to do that regardless of how good or crappy the content may be deemed.
Market forces are what are in play here wrt content. Just how much is Indigo willing to pay to be able to expand and make more $ in the longer run.
There’s been much speculation about what has been written in the last few weeks here in APC. Part of why I continue is motivation for pilots to remember our worth. WE determine it.
The cook at Ruth’s Chris is cooking different meals and is responsible for a much more complicated menu. That cook has more education in terms of how to prepare meals, set a menu, etc.
Airbus pilots are pretty much all the same - same education, skill level, etc.
But I do get your point.
Despite that, the NMB doesn’t dictate contract content - there job is to decide if the content is reasonable for purposes of determining an impasse (and therefore release). They have shown they aren’t willing to do that regardless of how good or crappy the content may be deemed.
Market forces are what are in play here wrt content. Just how much is Indigo willing to pay to be able to expand and make more $ in the longer run.
There’s been much speculation about what has been written in the last few weeks here in APC. Part of why I continue is motivation for pilots to remember our worth. WE determine it.
(As far as Ruth's Chris goes, the Alaska arbitrator said they deserved less because of lack of international flying and bigger aircraft, so there's your complicated menu....
)
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