Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-08-2018, 04:52 AM
#2973
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
They said last week that they hoped that they’d have something out in around 1 week. I believe that was very optimistic on their part. I’d expect something by the end of next week. They have a lot of things to get through.
11-08-2018, 06:18 AM
#2974
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2017
Posts: 49
No company A should absolutely pay an employee the same amount as an employee as company B does. I don’t disagree with you in that regard. The difference is company B is a much larger company and has way more revenue, brand awareness etc. They could cut their bad contracts and make a 30% markup on remaining half their business. So that’s 500,000 items sold at a 30% markup vs your 1,000. Then there’s a shortage and they could probably get away with an even larger markup. Customers trust the larger companies more. What do you think Delta’s profit margin would look like if cut 50% of their flying and kept only the most profitable 50%. Their margins would blow any ULCC margins out of the water. Profit margin isn’t the one metric used to evaluate the potential payroll a company can afford. Get it?
Your example is extremely out of numerical scale (we are actually about a tenth the size of the largest American airline pilot group, and management wishes to at least double that size, not 1/500 as in your example). You are making assumptions with numbers I don’t believe you have (if you do please provide what percentage of Delta’s flights make a higher profit margin then Frontier? Because if it’s 1% of their flights that’s a big difference from 50%) And you are presenting an impossible conditional scenario (ie full of ifs, ands or buts) Despite all your massaging of numbers and make believe scenarios I do agree with you that size of a company is not totally irrelevant, hardly relevant but not entirely irrelevant none the less. But I thought you agreed that the employees should be paid the same, so no I still don’t get it what’s your point? Why are you trying so hard to twist and misrepresent the most important fact to this issue? If you have time to spare in between your teaching your Econ classes I’d love the explanation Professor.
11-08-2018, 07:56 AM
#2975
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,411
No company A should absolutely pay an employee the same amount as an employee as company B does. I don’t disagree with you in that regard. The difference is company B is a much larger company and has way more revenue, brand awareness etc. They could cut their bad contracts and make a 30% markup on remaining half their business. So that’s 500,000 items sold at a 30% markup vs your 1,000. Then there’s a shortage and they could probably get away with an even larger markup. Customers trust the larger companies more. What do you think Delta’s profit margin would look like if cut 50% of their flying and kept only the most profitable 50%. Their margins would blow any ULCC margins out of the water. Profit margin isn’t the one metric used to evaluate the potential payroll a company can afford. Get it?
11-08-2018, 08:19 AM
#2976
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 418
History Lesson
Back during our bankruptcy, FAPA had the unpleasant experience of negotiating a concessionary agreement to our existing 2007 contract. That agreement was a very big part of Frontier's survival.
In that VERY UNFAVORABLE time, FAPA was able to secure an agreement that kept ALL of our work rules intact, including our line bidding system. FAPA was very proud (and justifiably so) of that achievement. Our only concession was pay and 401K, which we eventually got back (not withstanding LOA 67 increments that the company reneged on).
Frontier survived and Frontier has thrived. And now we find ourselves on the brink of our first post bankruptcy contract in the VERY BEST of times in our industry and with the BEST career outlook in decades for an airline pilot career.
Why are we now even considering giving away any of our favorable work rules, and accepting PBS, which is a CONCESSION?
Some will say that PBS is now industry standard. But remember, many of our legacy counterparts accepted PBS in their own bankruptcy concessionary agreements. BUT they also got something in return. Among other things they got profit sharing.
Why are we even considering accepting PBS and getting nothing in return? Some will say we are getting a significant increase in pay. That may be true, but it is only true because we are so far behind the rest of the pack.
This new agreement doesn't even bring us to industry average in pay. It only brings us to the back of the pack. I said months ago, that 'LAST to LAST' wasn't good enough.
I am dumbfounded when I see my brothers willing to concede favorable work rules now with nothing in return, when we were able to keep them through the bankruptcy.
Back during our bankruptcy, FAPA had the unpleasant experience of negotiating a concessionary agreement to our existing 2007 contract. That agreement was a very big part of Frontier's survival.
In that VERY UNFAVORABLE time, FAPA was able to secure an agreement that kept ALL of our work rules intact, including our line bidding system. FAPA was very proud (and justifiably so) of that achievement. Our only concession was pay and 401K, which we eventually got back (not withstanding LOA 67 increments that the company reneged on).
Frontier survived and Frontier has thrived. And now we find ourselves on the brink of our first post bankruptcy contract in the VERY BEST of times in our industry and with the BEST career outlook in decades for an airline pilot career.
Why are we now even considering giving away any of our favorable work rules, and accepting PBS, which is a CONCESSION?
Some will say that PBS is now industry standard. But remember, many of our legacy counterparts accepted PBS in their own bankruptcy concessionary agreements. BUT they also got something in return. Among other things they got profit sharing.
Why are we even considering accepting PBS and getting nothing in return? Some will say we are getting a significant increase in pay. That may be true, but it is only true because we are so far behind the rest of the pack.
This new agreement doesn't even bring us to industry average in pay. It only brings us to the back of the pack. I said months ago, that 'LAST to LAST' wasn't good enough.
I am dumbfounded when I see my brothers willing to concede favorable work rules now with nothing in return, when we were able to keep them through the bankruptcy.
11-08-2018, 08:31 AM
#2977
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 21
Where have you seen the details of the "framework agreement?" They're not even out yet. This is pure speculation.
11-08-2018, 08:35 AM
#2978
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: A320
Posts: 293
I am dumbfounded when I see my brothers willing to concede favorable work rules now with nothing in return, when we were able to keep them through the bankruptcy.[/QUOTE]
Well (if like you) we knew the details of the new framework then we may feel the same way. In the meantime lets see what our NC has put together. Sounds to me like there are several improvements and we are getting something in return for PBS.
Well (if like you) we knew the details of the new framework then we may feel the same way. In the meantime lets see what our NC has put together. Sounds to me like there are several improvements and we are getting something in return for PBS.
11-08-2018, 08:44 AM
#2979
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 418
What is not speculation, is the fact that it contains PBS. What is fact, is that we did not agree to PBS during bankruptcy.
11-08-2018, 08:44 AM
#2980
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
History Lesson
Back during our bankruptcy, FAPA had the unpleasant experience of negotiating a concessionary agreement to our existing 2007 contract. That agreement was a very big part of Frontier's survival.
In that VERY UNFAVORABLE time, FAPA was able to secure an agreement that kept ALL of our work rules intact, including our line bidding system. FAPA was very proud (and justifiably so) of that achievement. Our only concession was pay and 401K, which we eventually got back (not withstanding LOA 67 increments that the company reneged on).
Frontier survived and Frontier has thrived. And now we find ourselves on the brink of our first post bankruptcy contract in the VERY BEST of times in our industry and with the BEST career outlook in decades for an airline pilot career.
Why are we now even considering giving away any of our favorable work rules, and accepting PBS, which is a CONCESSION?
Some will say that PBS is now industry standard. But remember, many of our legacy counterparts accepted PBS in their own bankruptcy concessionary agreements. BUT they also got something in return. Among other things they got profit sharing.
Why are we even considering accepting PBS and getting nothing in return? Some will say we are getting a significant increase in pay. That may be true, but it is only true because we are so far behind the rest of the pack.
This new agreement doesn't even bring us to industry average in pay. It only brings us to the back of the pack. I said months ago, that 'LAST to LAST' wasn't good enough.
I am dumbfounded when I see my brothers willing to concede favorable work rules now with nothing in return, when we were able to keep them through the bankruptcy.
Back during our bankruptcy, FAPA had the unpleasant experience of negotiating a concessionary agreement to our existing 2007 contract. That agreement was a very big part of Frontier's survival.
In that VERY UNFAVORABLE time, FAPA was able to secure an agreement that kept ALL of our work rules intact, including our line bidding system. FAPA was very proud (and justifiably so) of that achievement. Our only concession was pay and 401K, which we eventually got back (not withstanding LOA 67 increments that the company reneged on).
Frontier survived and Frontier has thrived. And now we find ourselves on the brink of our first post bankruptcy contract in the VERY BEST of times in our industry and with the BEST career outlook in decades for an airline pilot career.
Why are we now even considering giving away any of our favorable work rules, and accepting PBS, which is a CONCESSION?
Some will say that PBS is now industry standard. But remember, many of our legacy counterparts accepted PBS in their own bankruptcy concessionary agreements. BUT they also got something in return. Among other things they got profit sharing.
Why are we even considering accepting PBS and getting nothing in return? Some will say we are getting a significant increase in pay. That may be true, but it is only true because we are so far behind the rest of the pack.
This new agreement doesn't even bring us to industry average in pay. It only brings us to the back of the pack. I said months ago, that 'LAST to LAST' wasn't good enough.
I am dumbfounded when I see my brothers willing to concede favorable work rules now with nothing in return, when we were able to keep them through the bankruptcy.
Last edited by Gary et al; 11-08-2018 at 09:12 AM.
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