Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-05-2018, 05:30 AM
#2921
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 227
Of course. I don’t think there is anything wrong with going in skeptical and having a “prove me wrong” attitude. That forces you to thoroughly evaluate the offer.
11-05-2018, 09:00 AM
#2922
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 30
Prepare to be disappointed...
Original Ask on Pay Rates (actually lower)
$238.00 Jan 1 with $245.00 in March 2019
TA'ed Per Diem Rates
12% Direct Contribution scaling to 15% in term of contract.
PBS (Union controls Pairings)
Work Rules similar, slight decrease
$75M Ratification Bonus
Approx. $50-$65K Captain (after tax)
Approx. $22-$37K First Officer (after tax)
LTD $8000 Max Benefit (Optional Imputed Tax)
This is a slap in the face. This is a 3rd rate proposal and one only needs to look at your LEC Reps should they vote on sending it to the pilots. Don't sell you or your fellow pilots short. Hold the line.
Sad.
$238.00 Jan 1 with $245.00 in March 2019
TA'ed Per Diem Rates
12% Direct Contribution scaling to 15% in term of contract.
PBS (Union controls Pairings)
Work Rules similar, slight decrease
$75M Ratification Bonus
Approx. $50-$65K Captain (after tax)
Approx. $22-$37K First Officer (after tax)
LTD $8000 Max Benefit (Optional Imputed Tax)
This is a slap in the face. This is a 3rd rate proposal and one only needs to look at your LEC Reps should they vote on sending it to the pilots. Don't sell you or your fellow pilots short. Hold the line.
Sad.
11-05-2018, 09:14 AM
#2923
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
In retrospect, I kinda wish the union didn't send that email last Friday. I wish they would have told the company: When we get an AIP ironed out, we'll let the membership know about it. Until then, keep working on it, and oh by the way, what you're offering now won't fly.
Because, in my estimation, by framework agreeing to anything, and making that decision public, we've already lost a lot of leverage.
I know we would have been screaming for information, but they could have just told us to pipe down, we'd get it when we get it.
#neverhappy. I know.
Because, in my estimation, by framework agreeing to anything, and making that decision public, we've already lost a lot of leverage.
I know we would have been screaming for information, but they could have just told us to pipe down, we'd get it when we get it.
#neverhappy. I know.
11-05-2018, 09:47 AM
#2924
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 85
In retrospect, I kinda wish the union didn't send that email last Friday. I wish they would have told the company: When we get an AIP ironed out, we'll let the membership know about it. Until then, keep working on it, and oh by the way, what you're offering now won't fly.
Because, in my estimation, by framework agreeing to anything, and making that decision public, we've already lost a lot of leverage.
I know we would have been screaming for information, but they could have just told us to pipe down, we'd get it when we get it.
#neverhappy. I know.
Because, in my estimation, by framework agreeing to anything, and making that decision public, we've already lost a lot of leverage.
I know we would have been screaming for information, but they could have just told us to pipe down, we'd get it when we get it.
#neverhappy. I know.
Unethical and irresponsible IMO...
11-05-2018, 10:35 AM
#2925
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 491
So can we all agree that if the information Mr. [presumably] Dimpledballs is putting out is correct, then the proposal is awful and deserves to be shot down?
Do we have any actual standards? Or are we just going to wait to see the final deal so we can rationalize voting ourselves into last place?
Do we have any actual standards? Or are we just going to wait to see the final deal so we can rationalize voting ourselves into last place?
11-05-2018, 10:40 AM
#2926
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Original Ask on Pay Rates (actually lower)
$238.00 Jan 1 with $245.00 in March 2019
TA'ed Per Diem Rates
12% Direct Contribution scaling to 15% in term of contract.
PBS (Union controls Pairings)
Work Rules similar, slight decrease
$75M Ratification Bonus
Approx. $50-$65K Captain (after tax)
Approx. $22-$37K First Officer (after tax)
LTD $8000 Max Benefit (Optional Imputed Tax)
This is a slap in the face. This is a 3rd rate proposal and one only needs to look at your LEC Reps should they vote on sending it to the pilots. Don't sell you or your fellow pilots short. Hold the line.
Sad.
$238.00 Jan 1 with $245.00 in March 2019
TA'ed Per Diem Rates
12% Direct Contribution scaling to 15% in term of contract.
PBS (Union controls Pairings)
Work Rules similar, slight decrease
$75M Ratification Bonus
Approx. $50-$65K Captain (after tax)
Approx. $22-$37K First Officer (after tax)
LTD $8000 Max Benefit (Optional Imputed Tax)
This is a slap in the face. This is a 3rd rate proposal and one only needs to look at your LEC Reps should they vote on sending it to the pilots. Don't sell you or your fellow pilots short. Hold the line.
Sad.
And how does one square "Same work rules" with "PBS". Are you saying our trip rig doesn't change? We don't get a min day? Things like that? Are you saying we keep our swap, drop, add with PBS? How? What open time pot will that come from? Drop grid requirements stay the same? Reserve rules the same?
I know you can't answer these questions, but I suppose I'm just being a bit rhetorical. You headlined with "prepare to be disappointed" That's an understatement.
Hopefully you're just completely wrong, or maybe misinformation is being deliberately spread, because I just can't believe this.
11-05-2018, 10:51 AM
#2927
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/CA
Posts: 165
In retrospect, I kinda wish the union didn't send that email last Friday. I wish they would have told the company: When we get an AIP ironed out, we'll let the membership know about it. Until then, keep working on it, and oh by the way, what you're offering now won't fly.
Because, in my estimation, by framework agreeing to anything, and making that decision public, we've already lost a lot of leverage.
I know we would have been screaming for information, but they could have just told us to pipe down, we'd get it when we get it.
#neverhappy. I know.
Because, in my estimation, by framework agreeing to anything, and making that decision public, we've already lost a lot of leverage.
I know we would have been screaming for information, but they could have just told us to pipe down, we'd get it when we get it.
#neverhappy. I know.
11-05-2018, 10:52 AM
#2928
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/CA
Posts: 165
Aero...cmon man. Why are JetBlue and Alaska rates a dream? Frontier is wildly profitable. Do you fly worse than a JetBlue or Alaskan pilot? Then why would you accept less compensation?
I can understand your argument in relation to getting released by the NMB, but guess what? The NMB is now irrelevant. Market forces are what is bringing Indigo to the table. The company can no longer staff the operation properly let alone account for future growth. Investors love growth. If Indigo can’t staff the airline, all of their lofty future goals fall by the wayside.
PBS is a concession, Spirit +2% is a concession, a 60/100% gap between FO and captain pay is a concession, the massive slope of the captain payscale is a concession (one which will increasingly affect a larger and larger share of our pilot group).
If we solidify our position in a lower tier than other ALPA groups flying the same equipment we will be playing catch up for decades. It’s a lot easier to walk in to your boss’s office and ask for a $20,000 raise if you are making 100k a year than it is if you are making 50k. This may be the best negotiation environment we will ever see. We have to knock this out of the park. I’m reserving my judgement for the final agreement but if the rumors contain any truth whatsoever I’ll be a solid no.
I can understand your argument in relation to getting released by the NMB, but guess what? The NMB is now irrelevant. Market forces are what is bringing Indigo to the table. The company can no longer staff the operation properly let alone account for future growth. Investors love growth. If Indigo can’t staff the airline, all of their lofty future goals fall by the wayside.
PBS is a concession, Spirit +2% is a concession, a 60/100% gap between FO and captain pay is a concession, the massive slope of the captain payscale is a concession (one which will increasingly affect a larger and larger share of our pilot group).
If we solidify our position in a lower tier than other ALPA groups flying the same equipment we will be playing catch up for decades. It’s a lot easier to walk in to your boss’s office and ask for a $20,000 raise if you are making 100k a year than it is if you are making 50k. This may be the best negotiation environment we will ever see. We have to knock this out of the park. I’m reserving my judgement for the final agreement but if the rumors contain any truth whatsoever I’ll be a solid no.
Last edited by LakeshoreFlyer; 11-05-2018 at 11:21 AM.
11-05-2018, 10:53 AM
#2929
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
If it’s correct I hope we vote this down with over 65% no.
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