Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-03-2018, 05:38 AM
#2821
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 676
Staffing levels
Going under the assumption that a PBS contract is in our future...
Until very recently we typically carried 8-9 crews per airplane. Our Chief Pilot has been in ground school as recently as this summer using seniority list growth projections that more closely equate to 10 crews per airplane. That was before we hit the hiring drought, increased line average closer to the 85 hour limit and cancelled vacations. Does anybody know what the required staffing levels would be (with our uniquely high aircraft utilization) under PBS?
Until very recently we typically carried 8-9 crews per airplane. Our Chief Pilot has been in ground school as recently as this summer using seniority list growth projections that more closely equate to 10 crews per airplane. That was before we hit the hiring drought, increased line average closer to the 85 hour limit and cancelled vacations. Does anybody know what the required staffing levels would be (with our uniquely high aircraft utilization) under PBS?
11-03-2018, 06:08 AM
#2823
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,538
Keep in mind with PBS:
1. We lose integration. This is a big one. No more super seniority for the junior guys or trip drops from carry over trips.
2. We will have to see about this PBS vacation touching. I currently can get 23 days off with one week of vacation or credit insane amounts by picking stuff up that is pretty decent before relief lines are built and all the open time is narrowed down to pure junk. PBS historically awards any and all carryover trip credit, training, and vacation credit toward your min credit prior to any bidding taking place. Hence you only get lets say 28 hours credit for a week of vacation if done this way.
3. PBS allows for people to pick up max flying legal. This means if you are one number junior to the person above you who wants a 100 hours credit you have less to choose from. Currently that senior person gets a line, then adds more at a later date in MOT bidding. At least if you were one number junior you were able to start out with a slightly better line since all the flying wasn't already picked through and added before PBS even got to you. Also this means less lines built for the ones who currently may be getting relief lines or any line for that matter via our bidding process. It creates more reserves and this is what the company wants to happen.
4. If you are junior and you know how computer logic works you can out bid and get trips that senior people will wonder how you got and they didn't. This is the secret that is called experience with using PBS. Not something you will explain to the person Senior to you. It is like asking your kids how to use instagram. They really don't care to explain it to you because it is probably gonna be like learning another language. The grew up with it, you didn't. This is why Junior people want PBS and you will see many promoting it. I know I have my previous refined PBS bids ready to go...
5. Once PBS awards are out, it is like going straight to the 28th. What is done is done. You have very little wiggle room and the reserve coverage will be slim to none for the buffers so good luck dropping anything once the company right sizes itself. It is like setting prices for tickets and knowing how much they can oversell based on history.
6. PBS bidding using the default bid and only having to take 5 minutes each month is a huge reason I liked PBS. However is our current system which takes a day or two to bid worth giving up for this for the unique scheduling system we have? This is where language is huge.
7. If we have unstacking limits like ASA had over just Nov, and Dec, that fixes a huge amount of dislike for what makes PBS bad. If not, here is the problem. With line bidding if the company is short staffed they will either have to cancel vacations (which we are suing them for) or assign all uncovered flying by paying premium pay. With PBS, they just assign it using PBS by unstacking it onto the pilot group at straight time. It destroys your schedule while saving the company money. Hence why unstacking limits are the number one thing I will look at first to see what language we have for it.
If the credit system is right, the language address unstacking, and a few other things like market rate pay, it could be acceptable, but until we see it we will wonder why our union made a 180 on PBS.
1. We lose integration. This is a big one. No more super seniority for the junior guys or trip drops from carry over trips.
2. We will have to see about this PBS vacation touching. I currently can get 23 days off with one week of vacation or credit insane amounts by picking stuff up that is pretty decent before relief lines are built and all the open time is narrowed down to pure junk. PBS historically awards any and all carryover trip credit, training, and vacation credit toward your min credit prior to any bidding taking place. Hence you only get lets say 28 hours credit for a week of vacation if done this way.
3. PBS allows for people to pick up max flying legal. This means if you are one number junior to the person above you who wants a 100 hours credit you have less to choose from. Currently that senior person gets a line, then adds more at a later date in MOT bidding. At least if you were one number junior you were able to start out with a slightly better line since all the flying wasn't already picked through and added before PBS even got to you. Also this means less lines built for the ones who currently may be getting relief lines or any line for that matter via our bidding process. It creates more reserves and this is what the company wants to happen.
4. If you are junior and you know how computer logic works you can out bid and get trips that senior people will wonder how you got and they didn't. This is the secret that is called experience with using PBS. Not something you will explain to the person Senior to you. It is like asking your kids how to use instagram. They really don't care to explain it to you because it is probably gonna be like learning another language. The grew up with it, you didn't. This is why Junior people want PBS and you will see many promoting it. I know I have my previous refined PBS bids ready to go...
5. Once PBS awards are out, it is like going straight to the 28th. What is done is done. You have very little wiggle room and the reserve coverage will be slim to none for the buffers so good luck dropping anything once the company right sizes itself. It is like setting prices for tickets and knowing how much they can oversell based on history.
6. PBS bidding using the default bid and only having to take 5 minutes each month is a huge reason I liked PBS. However is our current system which takes a day or two to bid worth giving up for this for the unique scheduling system we have? This is where language is huge.
7. If we have unstacking limits like ASA had over just Nov, and Dec, that fixes a huge amount of dislike for what makes PBS bad. If not, here is the problem. With line bidding if the company is short staffed they will either have to cancel vacations (which we are suing them for) or assign all uncovered flying by paying premium pay. With PBS, they just assign it using PBS by unstacking it onto the pilot group at straight time. It destroys your schedule while saving the company money. Hence why unstacking limits are the number one thing I will look at first to see what language we have for it.
If the credit system is right, the language address unstacking, and a few other things like market rate pay, it could be acceptable, but until we see it we will wonder why our union made a 180 on PBS.
11-03-2018, 06:36 AM
#2824
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Mostly correct. The rest is how PBS is configured. For #2 at delta we have an average line value, and PBS will bid you within 7.5 hours either side of that...not to FAR max. The reserve levels will be based on your pilots and flying...in nov on my fleet we have every day except thanksgiving with adequate reserve coverage to drop anything and the days are something like 15 required 50 available. In the summer staffing is a little tighter.
tunes. What about swapping stuff around? Is there a fairly decent opentime pot that you can, with some degree of regularity, say drop your Monday turn and grab an equivalent one on Thursday?
11-03-2018, 06:40 AM
#2825
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,538
If this could be true here too (mind you we're comparing Delta and Indigo here) It would go down a whole lot easier.
tunes. What about swapping stuff around? Is there a fairly decent opentime pot that you can, with some degree of regularity, say drop your Monday turn and grab an equivalent one on Thursday?
tunes. What about swapping stuff around? Is there a fairly decent opentime pot that you can, with some degree of regularity, say drop your Monday turn and grab an equivalent one on Thursday?
Can’t answer specifically about your turn question because the fleet i’m on has only a handful of them
11-03-2018, 06:42 AM
#2826
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
Depends on base/fleet. We’ve got two options: 1. The regular open time board which limits your pickup ability to that previously mentioned ALV + 15 hours. Or 2. Pilot swap board where guys/gals put trips they want to get rid of either for straight drop for other pilots or looking for swaps. There is no limit on the swap board and you can pick up to FAR limits there should your heart desire. Swap board has a lot more stuff in it during busy months than off season flying. Our schedules usually come out the 16th or so, and that day and the next the swap board is usually pretty big with guys wanting to get rid of their stuff.
Can’t answer specifically about your turn question because the fleet i’m on has only a handful of them
Can’t answer specifically about your turn question because the fleet i’m on has only a handful of them
11-03-2018, 08:58 AM
#2827
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 661
I was exactly like many of you when switching to PBS from line bidding. I was coming on this forum constantly posting “Hell no” and “it’s a no vote no matter what” ect. That’s until I actually used it. One big thing I didn’t realize: the amount of open time I was accustomed to was no longer necessary, because I was getting something much closer to what I wanted on the initial bid. I had never considered this before. After the initial award, I made a couple of minor trades, and it was perfect. I didn’t have to spend all month glued to my phone constantly dropping and swapping. Even as a junior guy, I would get 50% of what I wanted and trade the other 50%, vs line bidding when I would get a crappy bottom line and have to try and trade every trip. Just food for thought from someone who was one of the most infatic protrsters of PBS before I actually used it. Union control is key.
As far as all this “unstacking” talk....if you bid correctly this shouldn’t happen. If you are number 200 in base and only bid 5 trips, then sure you will have a problem. You can’t expect to hold all weekends off when there are only 50 trips Mon-Fri and you are number 200. You prefernce those 50 trips first, and then bid the best of what you can hold after that. It’s people that are 80% senority and expect Christmas off that are the ones complaining about unstacking. You will never be unstacked if you bid the appropriate number of trips at your senority
As far as all this “unstacking” talk....if you bid correctly this shouldn’t happen. If you are number 200 in base and only bid 5 trips, then sure you will have a problem. You can’t expect to hold all weekends off when there are only 50 trips Mon-Fri and you are number 200. You prefernce those 50 trips first, and then bid the best of what you can hold after that. It’s people that are 80% senority and expect Christmas off that are the ones complaining about unstacking. You will never be unstacked if you bid the appropriate number of trips at your senority
11-03-2018, 09:20 AM
#2828
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
I was exactly like many of you when switching to PBS from line bidding. I was coming on this forum constantly posting “Hell no” and “it’s a no vote no matter what” ect. That’s until I actually used it. One big thing I didn’t realize: the amount of open time I was accustomed to was no longer necessary, because I was getting something much closer to what I wanted on the initial bid. I had never considered this before. After the initial award, I made a couple of minor trades, and it was perfect. I didn’t have to spend all month glued to my phone constantly dropping and swapping. Even as a junior guy, I would get 50% of what I wanted and trade the other 50%, vs line bidding when I would get a crappy bottom line and have to try and trade every trip. Just food for thought from someone who was one of the most infatic protrsters of PBS before I actually used it. Union control is key.
As far as all this “unstacking” talk....if you bid correctly this shouldn’t happen. If you are number 200 in base and only bid 5 trips, then sure you will have a problem. You can’t expect to hold all weekends off when there are only 50 trips Mon-Fri and you are number 200. You prefernce those 50 trips first, and then bid the best of what you can hold after that. It’s people that are 80% senority and expect Christmas off that are the ones complaining about unstacking. You will never be unstacked if you bid the appropriate number of trips at your senority
As far as all this “unstacking” talk....if you bid correctly this shouldn’t happen. If you are number 200 in base and only bid 5 trips, then sure you will have a problem. You can’t expect to hold all weekends off when there are only 50 trips Mon-Fri and you are number 200. You prefernce those 50 trips first, and then bid the best of what you can hold after that. It’s people that are 80% senority and expect Christmas off that are the ones complaining about unstacking. You will never be unstacked if you bid the appropriate number of trips at your senority
11-03-2018, 10:00 AM
#2829
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
I was exactly like many of you when switching to PBS from line bidding. I was coming on this forum constantly posting “Hell no” and “it’s a no vote no matter what” ect. That’s until I actually used it. One big thing I didn’t realize: the amount of open time I was accustomed to was no longer necessary, because I was getting something much closer to what I wanted on the initial bid. I had never considered this before. After the initial award, I made a couple of minor trades, and it was perfect. I didn’t have to spend all month glued to my phone constantly dropping and swapping. Even as a junior guy, I would get 50% of what I wanted and trade the other 50%, vs line bidding when I would get a crappy bottom line and have to try and trade every trip. Just food for thought from someone who was one of the most infatic protrsters of PBS before I actually used it. Union control is key.
As far as all this “unstacking” talk....if you bid correctly this shouldn’t happen. If you are number 200 in base and only bid 5 trips, then sure you will have a problem. You can’t expect to hold all weekends off when there are only 50 trips Mon-Fri and you are number 200. You prefernce those 50 trips first, and then bid the best of what you can hold after that. It’s people that are 80% senority and expect Christmas off that are the ones complaining about unstacking. You will never be unstacked if you bid the appropriate number of trips at your senority
As far as all this “unstacking” talk....if you bid correctly this shouldn’t happen. If you are number 200 in base and only bid 5 trips, then sure you will have a problem. You can’t expect to hold all weekends off when there are only 50 trips Mon-Fri and you are number 200. You prefernce those 50 trips first, and then bid the best of what you can hold after that. It’s people that are 80% senority and expect Christmas off that are the ones complaining about unstacking. You will never be unstacked if you bid the appropriate number of trips at your senority
Denial mode on the other hand would happen in that case. That means your seniority could not hold any of those trips you asked for and you had no other preferences so it goes into denial mode and awards you what is left like I said above. HUGE difference between unstacking and denial mode. Unstacking is the company forcing trips on you, denial mode is that your seniority could not build a line with anything you requested and/or didn't have enough preferences so it just awards any pairings to get you a line that people junior to you don't want.
11-03-2018, 10:00 AM
#2830
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 418
Beware!! Buyer's Remorse
You will have a 'substantial ratification bonus' to spend once and then it will be gone (don't forget this is only part of the money you already earned).
At the first hiccup in the economy or 911 type event, this company will demand concessions, and this pilot group will gladly give them (we have proved that), and we will once again be left with low pay and PBS.
If we give them PBS now, we will have it FOREVER!!! The pay is only temporary.
Make no mistake about it. PBS is a CONCESSION and that is why the company wants it so badly. The carrot they are dangling is some TEMPORARY money.
There aren't very many things that make Frontier a more desirable place to work than the others. Let's not give one of them away unnecessarily.
I feel like for once since I have worked here we hold the best cards. Don't let Indigo win a huge poker pot when they are holding a pair of deuces and we have a full house.
You will have a 'substantial ratification bonus' to spend once and then it will be gone (don't forget this is only part of the money you already earned).
At the first hiccup in the economy or 911 type event, this company will demand concessions, and this pilot group will gladly give them (we have proved that), and we will once again be left with low pay and PBS.
If we give them PBS now, we will have it FOREVER!!! The pay is only temporary.
Make no mistake about it. PBS is a CONCESSION and that is why the company wants it so badly. The carrot they are dangling is some TEMPORARY money.
There aren't very many things that make Frontier a more desirable place to work than the others. Let's not give one of them away unnecessarily.
I feel like for once since I have worked here we hold the best cards. Don't let Indigo win a huge poker pot when they are holding a pair of deuces and we have a full house.
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