Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-02-2018, 07:15 AM
#2743
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 120
Kick out the NMB! They are not your friend. They will unduly influence you into putting out a substandard offer for a vote.
...
You don't NEED the NMB to negotiate a deal. They are a pro-business Board that will lean-in for the Company. They will not provide pressure, only relief from it. Indigo has now self-disclosed the pressure with their recent actions and desire to get a deal done. Let the market forces (hiring, growth, and investors) apply the pressure.
Don't give in to the National Mediation Board. Let your negotiators know you want them to kick the NMB, and their influence, right out of the room.
...
You don't NEED the NMB to negotiate a deal. They are a pro-business Board that will lean-in for the Company. They will not provide pressure, only relief from it. Indigo has now self-disclosed the pressure with their recent actions and desire to get a deal done. Let the market forces (hiring, growth, and investors) apply the pressure.
Don't give in to the National Mediation Board. Let your negotiators know you want them to kick the NMB, and their influence, right out of the room.
The quoted post above is on to something very fascinating. There may truly be a power shift in CBA negotiations taking place right now. I agree that the NMB may have lost its power by refusing to wield it in a responsible manner.
The fascinating point made above is that the power has shifted to the pilots in the form of the pathetic current CBA. The current CBA is withholding what the company wants, more pilots. The ideal scenario for Indigo is an acceptance of a new CBA by the pilot group that’s just enough to attract new bodies, and not a penny more.
It’s important that the pilot group recognizes this. I’m not very familiar with the Republic negotiations that took place a while back but I recall a similar shift in power that maybe wasn’t recognized/exploited.
All this talk of “you won’t get better than Alaska/JetBlue” etc only applies if the pilots hand the power back to the impotent NMB. Why do that? Why not wield the power you have, discount the NMB, and wait out the company? We all suffered through years of mistreatment by Indigo, it’d be tragic to misread the balance of power and fold now.
Just 2 cents from a former F9er...
11-02-2018, 07:36 AM
#2744
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
First I’ll say that I’ve moved on and now have an outside view of this fight.
The quoted post above is on to something very fascinating. There may truly be a power shift in CBA negotiations taking place right now. I agree that the NMB may have lost its power by refusing to wield it in a responsible manner.
The fascinating point made above is that the power has shifted to the pilots in the form of the pathetic current CBA. The current CBA is withholding what the company wants, more pilots. The ideal scenario for Indigo is an acceptance of a new CBA by the pilot group that’s just enough to attract new bodies, and not a penny more.
It’s important that the pilot group recognizes this. I’m not very familiar with the Republic negotiations that took place a while back but I recall a similar shift in power that maybe wasn’t recognized/exploited.
All this talk of “you won’t get better than Alaska/JetBlue” etc only applies if the pilots hand the power back to the impotent NMB. Why do that? Why not wield the power you have, discount the NMB, and wait out the company? We all suffered through years of mistreatment by Indigo, it’d be tragic to misread the balance of power and fold now.
Just 2 cents from a former F9er...
The quoted post above is on to something very fascinating. There may truly be a power shift in CBA negotiations taking place right now. I agree that the NMB may have lost its power by refusing to wield it in a responsible manner.
The fascinating point made above is that the power has shifted to the pilots in the form of the pathetic current CBA. The current CBA is withholding what the company wants, more pilots. The ideal scenario for Indigo is an acceptance of a new CBA by the pilot group that’s just enough to attract new bodies, and not a penny more.
It’s important that the pilot group recognizes this. I’m not very familiar with the Republic negotiations that took place a while back but I recall a similar shift in power that maybe wasn’t recognized/exploited.
All this talk of “you won’t get better than Alaska/JetBlue” etc only applies if the pilots hand the power back to the impotent NMB. Why do that? Why not wield the power you have, discount the NMB, and wait out the company? We all suffered through years of mistreatment by Indigo, it’d be tragic to misread the balance of power and fold now.
Just 2 cents from a former F9er...
11-02-2018, 07:39 AM
#2745
Hold my beer, watch this.
Joined APC: Aug 2012
Position: Airbus Pilot
Posts: 246
First off I'm a spirit guy and I agree with everyone on here saying we sold out. It doesn't offend me, I completely agree with you and so do 30 percent of our pilots who voted no. I've been following F9s negotiations and it's eerily similar to what happened to us. The actions of the company and that of the pilots.
Both companies stalling the first couple years, hard line apc posts about we'll accept nothing less than industry standard. I laugh when I think of how angry everyone was when our CEO said we were in a lower tier in the industry (he's right by the way). People distorted that and became outraged, convincing themselves he called us low tier pilots. Fine. If that's what fires you up. But it made it all the more ridiculous when we proved him right. We voted in a TA that put us only above allegiant, barely above Jetblue who was clearly going to see massive gains, and above frontier which was/is also in negotiations. We voted to cement ourselves in the lowest tier for the next 5-8 years.
The last minute introduction of PBS, the pilots on here screaming about how we will never accept it, then a few months later 70 percent of people voted yes.
I knew all along indigo would introduce PBS at the last second. They are using the exact same playbook as NK management did. And why wouldn't they? It worked. If you think it won't work against your group because you are stronger than us, good luck with that. I hope you're right but I wouldn't hold my breath. What they did to us was offer substandard rates and said you'll have to take pbs. We said no, polled the pilots, and a few months later the rates stayed exactly the same, pbs was the same, and the contract we voted yes on was exactly the same one we turned down a few months earlier except it included scope, ltd, and 401 overage paid directly to us.
The NMB tiers airlines into appropriate rankings. It sucks but that's the reality. You will be either just above NK or just below, but you're not going to beat out Jetblue or Alaska.
The NC will get something close to us and then it'll go to a vote and everyone will say hell no and then you'll wake up one morning confused as to how 90 percent of people you talked to said they were voting no and it passed by 70 percent.
This is just coming from someone who already lived your story. Every step of your process is like deja vu. I do hope you see a better outcome than us, good luck.
Both companies stalling the first couple years, hard line apc posts about we'll accept nothing less than industry standard. I laugh when I think of how angry everyone was when our CEO said we were in a lower tier in the industry (he's right by the way). People distorted that and became outraged, convincing themselves he called us low tier pilots. Fine. If that's what fires you up. But it made it all the more ridiculous when we proved him right. We voted in a TA that put us only above allegiant, barely above Jetblue who was clearly going to see massive gains, and above frontier which was/is also in negotiations. We voted to cement ourselves in the lowest tier for the next 5-8 years.
The last minute introduction of PBS, the pilots on here screaming about how we will never accept it, then a few months later 70 percent of people voted yes.
I knew all along indigo would introduce PBS at the last second. They are using the exact same playbook as NK management did. And why wouldn't they? It worked. If you think it won't work against your group because you are stronger than us, good luck with that. I hope you're right but I wouldn't hold my breath. What they did to us was offer substandard rates and said you'll have to take pbs. We said no, polled the pilots, and a few months later the rates stayed exactly the same, pbs was the same, and the contract we voted yes on was exactly the same one we turned down a few months earlier except it included scope, ltd, and 401 overage paid directly to us.
The NMB tiers airlines into appropriate rankings. It sucks but that's the reality. You will be either just above NK or just below, but you're not going to beat out Jetblue or Alaska.
The NC will get something close to us and then it'll go to a vote and everyone will say hell no and then you'll wake up one morning confused as to how 90 percent of people you talked to said they were voting no and it passed by 70 percent.
This is just coming from someone who already lived your story. Every step of your process is like deja vu. I do hope you see a better outcome than us, good luck.
11-02-2018, 10:00 AM
#2748
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,269
This guy gets it. I will say with my previous experience with sellouts around me at my previous place I do not see the same here at F9. This group knows the cards they hold now and Indigo screwed up by not getting a TA a year to two ago. Now we know Indigo needs one soon but the pilot group now wants revenge.
When we first saw our TA at spirit everyone was adamant about how they would be voting no and how we need industry standard and all that feel good BS. “We shouldn’t have to give anything up!” Same sentiment that’s happening with you guys right now.
Then slowly you started hearing things like, “well I’m undecided, I know we can do better but it’s a lot of money to leave on the table and we don’t know how long it’s going to take to get another deal.” Or, my favorite, “what if we vote this down and then the economy tanks or another 9/11 happens and we are stuck with this garbage contract for several more years?”
Then the road shows started and the union said that’s the best they could get and the NMB wasn’t helping our cause. NMB was ****ed that we were mad about the biggest pay raise in history. Convinced us that with the new rigs that we’d have just as many days off with more pay with PBS.
Then we voted and everyone knows the outcome. Don’t think that your colleagues won’t convince themselves that it’s good enough when they start doing the math on the new payrates. It happens every contract I’ve been a part of. People are going to do what’s best for their families and when you’re sitting at the dinner table across from your wife and you’re telling her you’re going to vote no on a $70k raise because the rescheduling language isn’t what you want to see and you don’t want PBS it gets tough.
I really hope you guys get that industry standard contract you deserve. I truly hope you jump way ahead of us as it gives us more leverage when we start negotiating again in a few years. Just know that all this talk about drawing a line in the sand and voting no or let em shut the place down is just talk.
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