Frontier Negotiations Discussion
11-01-2018, 08:36 PM
#2733
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 191
If the NC comes to us with PBS and our current ask for payrates didn’t increase I will be a hard no, not even looking at anything else. PBS is a concession and without and increase in ask, Then we’re blindly taking ANOTHER concession on a current CONCESSIONARY contract. Debate all y’all want about PBS but if our ask is not raised then it’s just a concession.
11-02-2018, 02:32 AM
#2734
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: doggy style
Posts: 1,006
If the NC comes to us with PBS and our current ask for payrates didn’t increase I will be a hard no, not even looking at anything else. PBS is a concession and without and increase in ask, Then we’re blindly taking ANOTHER concession on a current CONCESSIONARY contract. Debate all y’all want about PBS but if our ask is not raised then it’s just a concession.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
11-02-2018, 04:34 AM
#2735
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Position: A320
Posts: 293
Stupid. Just plain stupid.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
Amen to that
And I hope (and believe) most of us agree with you. We need to remove emotion and look at this as a business decision.
11-02-2018, 04:40 AM
#2736
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 6
First off I'm a spirit guy and I agree with everyone on here saying we sold out. It doesn't offend me, I completely agree with you and so do 30 percent of our pilots who voted no. I've been following F9s negotiations and it's eerily similar to what happened to us. The actions of the company and that of the pilots.
Both companies stalling the first couple years, hard line apc posts about we'll accept nothing less than industry standard. I laugh when I think of how angry everyone was when our CEO said we were in a lower tier in the industry (he's right by the way). People distorted that and became outraged, convincing themselves he called us low tier pilots. Fine. If that's what fires you up. But it made it all the more ridiculous when we proved him right. We voted in a TA that put us only above allegiant, barely above Jetblue who was clearly going to see massive gains, and above frontier which was/is also in negotiations. We voted to cement ourselves in the lowest tier for the next 5-8 years.
The last minute introduction of PBS, the pilots on here screaming about how we will never accept it, then a few months later 70 percent of people voted yes.
I knew all along indigo would introduce PBS at the last second. They are using the exact same playbook as NK management did. And why wouldn't they? It worked. If you think it won't work against your group because you are stronger than us, good luck with that. I hope you're right but I wouldn't hold my breath. What they did to us was offer substandard rates and said you'll have to take pbs. We said no, polled the pilots, and a few months later the rates stayed exactly the same, pbs was the same, and the contract we voted yes on was exactly the same one we turned down a few months earlier except it included scope, ltd, and 401 overage paid directly to us.
The NMB tiers airlines into appropriate rankings. It sucks but that's the reality. You will be either just above NK or just below, but you're not going to beat out Jetblue or Alaska.
The NC will get something close to us and then it'll go to a vote and everyone will say hell no and then you'll wake up one morning confused as to how 90 percent of people you talked to said they were voting no and it passed by 70 percent.
This is just coming from someone who already lived your story. Every step of your process is like deja vu. I do hope you see a better outcome than us, good luck.
Both companies stalling the first couple years, hard line apc posts about we'll accept nothing less than industry standard. I laugh when I think of how angry everyone was when our CEO said we were in a lower tier in the industry (he's right by the way). People distorted that and became outraged, convincing themselves he called us low tier pilots. Fine. If that's what fires you up. But it made it all the more ridiculous when we proved him right. We voted in a TA that put us only above allegiant, barely above Jetblue who was clearly going to see massive gains, and above frontier which was/is also in negotiations. We voted to cement ourselves in the lowest tier for the next 5-8 years.
The last minute introduction of PBS, the pilots on here screaming about how we will never accept it, then a few months later 70 percent of people voted yes.
I knew all along indigo would introduce PBS at the last second. They are using the exact same playbook as NK management did. And why wouldn't they? It worked. If you think it won't work against your group because you are stronger than us, good luck with that. I hope you're right but I wouldn't hold my breath. What they did to us was offer substandard rates and said you'll have to take pbs. We said no, polled the pilots, and a few months later the rates stayed exactly the same, pbs was the same, and the contract we voted yes on was exactly the same one we turned down a few months earlier except it included scope, ltd, and 401 overage paid directly to us.
The NMB tiers airlines into appropriate rankings. It sucks but that's the reality. You will be either just above NK or just below, but you're not going to beat out Jetblue or Alaska.
The NC will get something close to us and then it'll go to a vote and everyone will say hell no and then you'll wake up one morning confused as to how 90 percent of people you talked to said they were voting no and it passed by 70 percent.
This is just coming from someone who already lived your story. Every step of your process is like deja vu. I do hope you see a better outcome than us, good luck.
11-02-2018, 05:10 AM
#2738
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 191
Stupid. Just plain stupid.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
What I said is........ IF OUR CURRENT ASK IS NOT RAISED HIGHER (cause our current ask is based on line bidding)
AND
PBS is still part of the TA.... um I’m a NO.
We will either need to be heavily compensated for that concession or I’m voting NO. I will not sell out.
11-02-2018, 05:25 AM
#2739
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 124
Stupid. Just plain stupid.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
You're telling me that if our vacation is placed after the bid is awarded, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get 5 hour min day credit, you'd still vote no? Dumb.
You're telling me if we get guaranteed 3 days off between trips with a 14 day off guarantee, you'd vote no? Dumb.
Point is, we can get other great things for PBS and this hard-line "I'm voting no" garbage is just that.... garbage.
PBS is a CONCESSION. There’s a reason that almost every major airline that has it got it during some form of bankruptcy or similar.
Pbs results in less Pilots on property, and WAY less soft time. I worked at a regional that transitioned to pbs while I was there. And it was “good” pbs where the union had a ton of control over it. I spent several years there under line bidding before spending several years using pbs. You know what the result was? Every year under pbs ended with a grand total of more days worked for less credit time accrued.
That is the whole point of pbs! You WILL work more days and earn less credit. It is a CONCESSION.
11-02-2018, 05:49 AM
#2740
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
First off I'm a spirit guy and I agree with everyone on here saying we sold out. It doesn't offend me, I completely agree with you and so do 30 percent of our pilots who voted no. I've been following F9s negotiations and it's eerily similar to what happened to us. The actions of the company and that of the pilots.
Both companies stalling the first couple years, hard line apc posts about we'll accept nothing less than industry standard. I laugh when I think of how angry everyone was when our CEO said we were in a lower tier in the industry (he's right by the way). People distorted that and became outraged, convincing themselves he called us low tier pilots. Fine. If that's what fires you up. But it made it all the more ridiculous when we proved him right. We voted in a TA that put us only above allegiant, barely above Jetblue who was clearly going to see massive gains, and above frontier which was/is also in negotiations. We voted to cement ourselves in the lowest tier for the next 5-8 years.
The last minute introduction of PBS, the pilots on here screaming about how we will never accept it, then a few months later 70 percent of people voted yes.
I knew all along indigo would introduce PBS at the last second. They are using the exact same playbook as NK management did. And why wouldn't they? It worked. If you think it won't work against your group because you are stronger than us, good luck with that. I hope you're right but I wouldn't hold my breath. What they did to us was offer substandard rates and said you'll have to take pbs. We said no, polled the pilots, and a few months later the rates stayed exactly the same, pbs was the same, and the contract we voted yes on was exactly the same one we turned down a few months earlier except it included scope, ltd, and 401 overage paid directly to us.
The NMB tiers airlines into appropriate rankings. It sucks but that's the reality. You will be either just above NK or just below, but you're not going to beat out Jetblue or Alaska.
The NC will get something close to us and then it'll go to a vote and everyone will say hell no and then you'll wake up one morning confused as to how 90 percent of people you talked to said they were voting no and it passed by 70 percent.
This is just coming from someone who already lived your story. Every step of your process is like deja vu. I do hope you see a better outcome than us, good luck.
Both companies stalling the first couple years, hard line apc posts about we'll accept nothing less than industry standard. I laugh when I think of how angry everyone was when our CEO said we were in a lower tier in the industry (he's right by the way). People distorted that and became outraged, convincing themselves he called us low tier pilots. Fine. If that's what fires you up. But it made it all the more ridiculous when we proved him right. We voted in a TA that put us only above allegiant, barely above Jetblue who was clearly going to see massive gains, and above frontier which was/is also in negotiations. We voted to cement ourselves in the lowest tier for the next 5-8 years.
The last minute introduction of PBS, the pilots on here screaming about how we will never accept it, then a few months later 70 percent of people voted yes.
I knew all along indigo would introduce PBS at the last second. They are using the exact same playbook as NK management did. And why wouldn't they? It worked. If you think it won't work against your group because you are stronger than us, good luck with that. I hope you're right but I wouldn't hold my breath. What they did to us was offer substandard rates and said you'll have to take pbs. We said no, polled the pilots, and a few months later the rates stayed exactly the same, pbs was the same, and the contract we voted yes on was exactly the same one we turned down a few months earlier except it included scope, ltd, and 401 overage paid directly to us.
The NMB tiers airlines into appropriate rankings. It sucks but that's the reality. You will be either just above NK or just below, but you're not going to beat out Jetblue or Alaska.
The NC will get something close to us and then it'll go to a vote and everyone will say hell no and then you'll wake up one morning confused as to how 90 percent of people you talked to said they were voting no and it passed by 70 percent.
This is just coming from someone who already lived your story. Every step of your process is like deja vu. I do hope you see a better outcome than us, good luck.
#1 Since the beginning of NK's section 6 your management had not treated you guys quite as badly as we have been treated by Indigo. Reneged on LOA 67, cancelled vacations, threatening letters about sick time use, firing probationary pilots, using our sick bank for fume events, epidemic levels of contract violations, and on and on.
#2 NK's hiring crisis, if there even was one, never reached fever pitch as ours now has. Prospective pilots coming to NK were not nearly as discouraged as they are to come here. Your pay was better, and the word had not gone out, as it very effectively has here, to not come.
#3 You received a TRO which seemed to psychologically hamstring you and get you in trouble with the NMB, the body you felt, at the time, held all the cards to your future.
#4 Your leverage at this stage in the game was far less than what we have now. We have come to realize the NMB doesn't control our future, Indigo's need to run their airline provides our leverage now, and they're beginning to have a tough time doing that.
#5 We have the 20-20 hindsight of having watched your process.
You are disappointed with what your pilot group did. I am too, but at some level, right or wrong, it's understandable. If F9 pilots do the same thing, given what we've gone through, given the position of strength we now occupy, then we are infinitely more spineless than Spirit, because the argument can be made that you did what you had to do. We hold all the cards now, period. If we fold now, we're the biggest losers this industry has ever seen.
...
Last edited by Wheelswatch; 11-02-2018 at 06:00 AM.
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