Frontier Negotiations Discussion
06-25-2018, 10:14 AM
#2071
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
DDL is about it.
This vacation swan song needs to die out after this next round of surveys. If not, I fear we will get parked into next year until the NMB feels like we've had enough punishment. Because if we aren't willing to negotiate a change to our vacation system, we aren't going to have any mediated sessions to go to. It'll be cold and dark from the NMB. Sorta like what we are seeing right now.
Quantify vacation, negotiate it, and let's f'ing wrap this up.
This vacation swan song needs to die out after this next round of surveys. If not, I fear we will get parked into next year until the NMB feels like we've had enough punishment. Because if we aren't willing to negotiate a change to our vacation system, we aren't going to have any mediated sessions to go to. It'll be cold and dark from the NMB. Sorta like what we are seeing right now.
Quantify vacation, negotiate it, and let's f'ing wrap this up.
06-25-2018, 10:39 AM
#2073
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
I know this site is full of negativity and you make good points, but we do have several good things.
1. We line bid. This typically gets pilots more time off (a high priority for me) by causing trip/training/vacation conflicts. Line bidding also protects seniority as people don’t get unstacked on, as well as keeping junior pilots from getting lines while senior pilots are forced to sit reserve.
2. Post-award vacation slide. Does any other airline do this?
3. Premium pay above 82 hours. Yes our current rates are a joke, but if we keep this it is worth something.
4. We can’t be forced to work on a day off (outside of mechanical/weather delays). If a pilot chooses to answer their phone, that’s on them.
5. Our reserve system isn’t incredible, but it’s not bad. Right now we’re short staffed so reserve will suck no matter what, but when we’re properly staffed our medium call pilots usually don’t fly. Also, having multiple reserve windows to bid is nice.
Obviously our contract is lacking greatly, but this stuff mentioned above is valuable. I know for me PBS is a no vote (with or without a TRO).
1. We line bid. This typically gets pilots more time off (a high priority for me) by causing trip/training/vacation conflicts. Line bidding also protects seniority as people don’t get unstacked on, as well as keeping junior pilots from getting lines while senior pilots are forced to sit reserve.
2. Post-award vacation slide. Does any other airline do this?
3. Premium pay above 82 hours. Yes our current rates are a joke, but if we keep this it is worth something.
4. We can’t be forced to work on a day off (outside of mechanical/weather delays). If a pilot chooses to answer their phone, that’s on them.
5. Our reserve system isn’t incredible, but it’s not bad. Right now we’re short staffed so reserve will suck no matter what, but when we’re properly staffed our medium call pilots usually don’t fly. Also, having multiple reserve windows to bid is nice.
Obviously our contract is lacking greatly, but this stuff mentioned above is valuable. I know for me PBS is a no vote (with or without a TRO).
06-25-2018, 10:53 AM
#2074
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Position: F9 FO
Posts: 370
I'm so tired of hearing "our work rules" from our union.
Deltas 230 seat airplane tops out at $321 per hour, our 230 seat ask is $245. Our Awesome work rules include giving up lines for IOE to sit reserves, no holiday pay, no international override, no red eye over ride, no crew meals, no breakfast included at hotels where every other airline gets breakfast, middle seat deadheads in the most uncomfortable seats in the industry.
The only thing we have is vacation drop that we can double dip in. That only works becuase we don't come back through base on trips. So yes, if you are willing to give up your couple weeks of vacation per year you can make a little extra money. WHAT OTHER WORK RULES DO WE HAVE?
Deltas 230 seat airplane tops out at $321 per hour, our 230 seat ask is $245. Our Awesome work rules include giving up lines for IOE to sit reserves, no holiday pay, no international override, no red eye over ride, no crew meals, no breakfast included at hotels where every other airline gets breakfast, middle seat deadheads in the most uncomfortable seats in the industry.
The only thing we have is vacation drop that we can double dip in. That only works becuase we don't come back through base on trips. So yes, if you are willing to give up your couple weeks of vacation per year you can make a little extra money. WHAT OTHER WORK RULES DO WE HAVE?
The best thing the NC and union have done for themselves is talk about our great work rules. Give me an effing break. We have some good stuff like vacation, but even that isn't fool proof. You have to come in to do turns if it comes back through base? Screw that. Do you know how fast our 17, 18, 19 day off vacations would disappear if the company started tweaking how they ran pairings?
Not to mention how training magically gets put on your schedule after its awarded, again possibly making you come in and do turns the day before or after training. I didn't even have to do that at my regional.
Plus, I love how we magically lose trip rig on trips. Oh, it goes through the ringer, and now you're not protected, thanks!
Our work rules are not rainbows and sunshine.
06-25-2018, 11:36 AM
#2075
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
06-25-2018, 11:51 AM
#2076
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 418
DDL is about it.
This vacation swan song needs to die out after this next round of surveys. If not, I fear we will get parked into next year until the NMB feels like we've had enough punishment. Because if we aren't willing to negotiate a change to our vacation system, we aren't going to have any mediated sessions to go to. It'll be cold and dark from the NMB. Sorta like what we are seeing right now.
Quantify vacation, negotiate it, and let's f'ing wrap this up.
This vacation swan song needs to die out after this next round of surveys. If not, I fear we will get parked into next year until the NMB feels like we've had enough punishment. Because if we aren't willing to negotiate a change to our vacation system, we aren't going to have any mediated sessions to go to. It'll be cold and dark from the NMB. Sorta like what we are seeing right now.
Quantify vacation, negotiate it, and let's f'ing wrap this up.
We are the lowest paid Airbus operators by far, and our current ask doesn't even get us to industry average.
And now you are suggesting we give some more concessions to "f'ing wrap this up"??? Are you flipping nuts? Didn't you get the memo?
The concession stand is closed!!!
06-25-2018, 11:52 AM
#2077
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
I know this site is full of negativity and you make good points, but we do have several good things.
1. We line bid. This typically gets pilots more time off (a high priority for me) by causing trip/training/vacation conflicts. Line bidding also protects seniority as people don’t get unstacked on, as well as keeping junior pilots from getting lines while senior pilots are forced to sit reserve.
2. Post-award vacation slide. Does any other airline do this?
Even Atlas has this.
3. Premium pay above 82 hours. Yes our current rates are a joke, but if we keep this it is worth something.
4. We can’t be forced to work on a day off (outside of mechanical/weather delays). If a pilot chooses to answer their phone, that’s on them.
Atlas has this also.
5. Our reserve system isn’t incredible, but it’s not bad. Right now we’re short staffed so reserve will suck no matter what, but when we’re properly staffed our medium call pilots usually don’t fly. Also, having multiple reserve windows to bid is nice.
Obviously our contract is lacking greatly, but this stuff mentioned above is valuable. I know for me PBS is a no vote (with or without a TRO).
1. We line bid. This typically gets pilots more time off (a high priority for me) by causing trip/training/vacation conflicts. Line bidding also protects seniority as people don’t get unstacked on, as well as keeping junior pilots from getting lines while senior pilots are forced to sit reserve.
2. Post-award vacation slide. Does any other airline do this?
Even Atlas has this.
3. Premium pay above 82 hours. Yes our current rates are a joke, but if we keep this it is worth something.
4. We can’t be forced to work on a day off (outside of mechanical/weather delays). If a pilot chooses to answer their phone, that’s on them.
Atlas has this also.
5. Our reserve system isn’t incredible, but it’s not bad. Right now we’re short staffed so reserve will suck no matter what, but when we’re properly staffed our medium call pilots usually don’t fly. Also, having multiple reserve windows to bid is nice.
Obviously our contract is lacking greatly, but this stuff mentioned above is valuable. I know for me PBS is a no vote (with or without a TRO).
06-25-2018, 12:01 PM
#2078
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 453
What you are suggesting we do is a concession. We survived bankruptcy and the Republic debacle with most of our work rules intact. We have given over 10 years worth of concessions. We gave and we gave, and we gave for way too long of a duration.
We are the lowest paid Airbus operators by far, and our current ask doesn't even get us to industry average.
And now you are suggesting we give some more concessions to "f'ing wrap this up"??? Are you flipping nuts? Didn't you get the memo?
The concession stand is closed!!!
We are the lowest paid Airbus operators by far, and our current ask doesn't even get us to industry average.
And now you are suggesting we give some more concessions to "f'ing wrap this up"??? Are you flipping nuts? Didn't you get the memo?
The concession stand is closed!!!
06-25-2018, 12:23 PM
#2079
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 550
I said "quantify" our vacation, not give it up. Put a dollar amount on it, add it to our ask, drop it on the table. Or we can continue to cross our arms when it's brought up and we can go round and round into 2019.
06-25-2018, 12:42 PM
#2080
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 146
It's gonna go into 2019... 2020... and beyond with everyone pitching in to bail these fools out.
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