Originally Posted by CantStayAway

Envoy has flow to American. Your statement is true for those at a regional with no flow, but not Envoy. If I were captain qualified and not close to upgrade at a regional and had the choice between Envoy street
Captain or Frontier new hire I’d definitely go to Envoy.

Originally Posted by V1 McFlyerson

What potential though? The possibility to go from the complete industry abhorring contract that we have now to just being firmly on the bottom for 8 more years?

The growth plans are a joke. Do people really give a damn about mythical growth at F9? Frontier growing would be the opposite of a good thing. The place is an equity group ran, low compensation, scumbag operation.

Originally Posted by FlyingR6

Frontier is terrible, I should rephrase, but there is potential. What you see is what you get at the regionals. And, not all of them are moving on. Ask all the older folks there that are deemed "too old and un-trainable" from the majors. Or the younger people that don't put in enough volunteer work.

Originally Posted by V1 McFlyerson

The growth plans are a joke. Do people really give a damn about mythical growth at F9? Frontier growing would be the opposite of a good thing. The place is an equity group ran, low compensation, scumbag operation.

Originally Posted by Aero1900

What the heck you talkin about? The growth is very real and very important. Do you understand what seniority is and how it works? Are you aware that as an airline grows, the pilots accumulate seniority? Seniority improves quality of life and becomes furlough protection. You understand these concepts?

You are right that we are run by an equity firm though, so you got something right. And for the record, Frontier has hired 500+ pilots since we were bought by the equity fellas. And we are going to gain 15+ airframes next year.

But go to Envoy and experience the life of being whipsawed. Ask ASA pilots about that. Or Comair pilots...

Originally Posted by V1 McFlyerson

I don't give a damn about growth until this place isn't a laughing stock and stops being a drag on the industry. At least you're honest about where you stand.

Originally Posted by dracir1

Interesting note posted by a Jet Blue pilot not too long ago about their management...

"BJ's business model relies on shortstaffing and shortchanging. It exploits legal frameworks and psychology.

The legal framework is the FOM, Bluebook, and FSM. It defines how they will exploit you to compensate for the lack of proper staffing.
The psychological framework is "culture", "juicers", and your natural desire to do an excellent job. I previously provided a link to a research paper
source: http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/cha...ialControl.pdf
Juicers are the tools (useful idiots) of this management mechanism of control.
It all relies on your natural ego to want to do a good job. It is deep within each of us. This is not a bad thing - quite the contrary. We should all strive to excel as servant leaders and employees, however, the company is exploiting our good will while not adequately compensating and respecting us.
They have developed a control mechanism whereby they staff workgroups at less than 100%. People want to do a good job so they will jump higher because it is in their nature, in their work ethic, to excel. For those that don't, there are legal mechanisms to pacify and control. Only people at the top benefit with ridiculously high paychecks while the rest of us beg for table scraps.
Let us not be enablers.
Let us not subsidize their exploitative model.


These are not honorable people."

Sound familiar?

https://www.denverpost.com/2015/09/2...ne-in-the-u-s/

https://marketrealist.com/2017/04/fr...ame-profitable

Originally Posted by ExecNav

And get displaced to the left seat immediately out of training, on reserve for years, commuting to NY, and flying with the most junior FO’s EVERY SINGLE trip in the whistling deathjet?

The flow is currently being advertised as 8 years. They’ve been metering due to operational necessity for some time now. Who’s to say that won’t continue?

I mean, yeah, you’ll make over 100k your first year but that’s about where it stops. I don’t know.

Originally Posted by V1 McFlyerson

I don't give a damn about growth until this place isn't a laughing stock and stops being a drag on the industry. At least you're honest about where you stand.