Logging PIC
04-16-2008, 09:15 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 5
Logging PIC
OK, I know I'm re-opening a can of worms that has been stirred many times, but now I find myself in the same boat with questions as I prepare my Netjets application.
Far 61.51 states the following:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
Based on this, can I, as an ATP, SIC type-rated CRJ pilot, log as PIC all the legs I have flown from the left seat. I am the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls true, but as the "sole manipulator", am I also "acting as pilot in command"?
Thanks
Far 61.51 states the following:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
Based on this, can I, as an ATP, SIC type-rated CRJ pilot, log as PIC all the legs I have flown from the left seat. I am the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls true, but as the "sole manipulator", am I also "acting as pilot in command"?
Thanks
04-16-2008, 10:19 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: LAMA/P180/747
Posts: 427
Think of PIC as the Final Authority of the aircraft. If you are the CA in the left seat and signed for the release, you are the Final Authority of the aircraft. Even if you are type rated in the aircraft, during IOE CA training, the check airman is the PIC. They have signed the release and are the final authority of the aircraft. As a CA in training during IOE, you get to log SIC time.
04-16-2008, 10:27 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Front
Posts: 191
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
Based on this, can I, as an ATP, SIC type-rated CRJ pilot, log as PIC all the legs I have flown from the left seat. I am the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls true, but as the "sole manipulator", am I also "acting as pilot in command"?
Based on this, can I, as an ATP, SIC type-rated CRJ pilot, log as PIC all the legs I have flown from the left seat. I am the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls true, but as the "sole manipulator", am I also "acting as pilot in command"?
I agree with the above. They aren't concerned with "logable" PIC, they want "acting" PIC time. Sole manipulator is not acting PIC. The only acting PIC is the person "signing" for the airplane....ie the Captain. Keep in mind that there is no shortage of applicants with thousands of hours of "acting" PIC time.
04-16-2008, 10:41 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Left seat
Posts: 189
OK, I know I'm re-opening a can of worms that has been stirred many times, but now I find myself in the same boat with questions as I prepare my Netjets application.
Far 61.51 states the following:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
Based on this, can I, as an ATP, SIC type-rated CRJ pilot, log as PIC all the legs I have flown from the left seat. I am the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls true, but as the "sole manipulator", am I also "acting as pilot in command"?
Thanks
Far 61.51 states the following:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
Based on this, can I, as an ATP, SIC type-rated CRJ pilot, log as PIC all the legs I have flown from the left seat. I am the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls true, but as the "sole manipulator", am I also "acting as pilot in command"?
Thanks
04-16-2008, 12:55 PM
#6
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: KC-10 Both
Posts: 37
How about if I'm the "acting" PIC and I'm in the bunk on a KC-10A and two pilots who are not in command are flying the jet. Military rules I log "other". Per 61.51 I log PIC? For NetJets I log zero "other". How do you log it as a 777 captain in the bunk as "acting" PIC? It would be nice if they didn't leave it up to interpretation.
04-16-2008, 02:38 PM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Just my two pesos worth,
If logging PIC time for job application purposes, most are interested in Part 1 PIC time...i.e. the guy with the four stripes who signed for the plane. Southwest last time I checked allowed the logging of sole manip. if typed in the jet as eligible for PIC time. Again, I haven't looked at their website in years so it may have changed.
So yes, if your the four striper in the bunk, bathroom, or downstairs taking a smoke break
you're logging Part 1 PIC time.
If you're not interested in the logging of PIC for job application purposes, the logging of flight time under Part 61 allows the logging of PIC time under many different scenarios.
FF
If logging PIC time for job application purposes, most are interested in Part 1 PIC time...i.e. the guy with the four stripes who signed for the plane. Southwest last time I checked allowed the logging of sole manip. if typed in the jet as eligible for PIC time. Again, I haven't looked at their website in years so it may have changed.
So yes, if your the four striper in the bunk, bathroom, or downstairs taking a smoke break
you're logging Part 1 PIC time.If you're not interested in the logging of PIC for job application purposes, the logging of flight time under Part 61 allows the logging of PIC time under many different scenarios.
FF
04-16-2008, 08:23 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 141
The "sole manipulator" bit isn't for "I have the controls right now so I'm logging PIC for this 30 minutes. You'll have the controls next and you'll log the next 30 minutes."
Sole manipulator means that there may in fact be more than one person on the plane, but you are the only dude flying. As in, the rest are not qualified pilots or not qualified to fly that plane. That answers (i).
For (ii), that is pretty obvious that if are the ONLY person in the plane you are thereby the pilot in command. However, many companies don't want you to list that as PIC if it was before you got you wings (mil) or commercial certificate (civ). I have a ton of solo jet time in my military training and it all counts towards my total, but most companies don't want to see it listed in my PIC info even though the FAA says I as PIC for those flights.
Lastly (iii) means that in a multi-crew plane, who ever is designated as the PIC by the company is the guy who gets the PIC time. You could fly from take-off to landing doing everything, but if you aren't the captain, you can't log PIC. You may be pilot at controls, but you are not in command. Basically whoever signs for the jet is the PIC.
To answer you question: No, you technically cannot log PIC if you were not the captain of those flights no matter how you try and wrangle it (sole manipulator or which seat you were in). It is always best to underestimate you flight time accomplishments than to overestimate them. Get caught overestimating and it will cost you the job.
Sole manipulator means that there may in fact be more than one person on the plane, but you are the only dude flying. As in, the rest are not qualified pilots or not qualified to fly that plane. That answers (i).
For (ii), that is pretty obvious that if are the ONLY person in the plane you are thereby the pilot in command. However, many companies don't want you to list that as PIC if it was before you got you wings (mil) or commercial certificate (civ). I have a ton of solo jet time in my military training and it all counts towards my total, but most companies don't want to see it listed in my PIC info even though the FAA says I as PIC for those flights.
Lastly (iii) means that in a multi-crew plane, who ever is designated as the PIC by the company is the guy who gets the PIC time. You could fly from take-off to landing doing everything, but if you aren't the captain, you can't log PIC. You may be pilot at controls, but you are not in command. Basically whoever signs for the jet is the PIC.
To answer you question: No, you technically cannot log PIC if you were not the captain of those flights no matter how you try and wrangle it (sole manipulator or which seat you were in). It is always best to underestimate you flight time accomplishments than to overestimate them. Get caught overestimating and it will cost you the job.
04-17-2008, 07:09 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Left seat
Posts: 189
The "sole manipulator" bit isn't for "I have the controls right now so I'm logging PIC for this 30 minutes. You'll have the controls next and you'll log the next 30 minutes."
Sole manipulator means that there may in fact be more than one person on the plane, but you are the only dude flying. As in, the rest are not qualified pilots or not qualified to fly that plane. That answers (i).
For (ii), that is pretty obvious that if are the ONLY person in the plane you are thereby the pilot in command. However, many companies don't want you to list that as PIC if it was before you got you wings (mil) or commercial certificate (civ). I have a ton of solo jet time in my military training and it all counts towards my total, but most companies don't want to see it listed in my PIC info even though the FAA says I as PIC for those flights.
Lastly (iii) means that in a multi-crew plane, who ever is designated as the PIC by the company is the guy who gets the PIC time. You could fly from take-off to landing doing everything, but if you aren't the captain, you can't log PIC. You may be pilot at controls, but you are not in command. Basically whoever signs for the jet is the PIC.
To answer you question: No, you technically cannot log PIC if you were not the captain of those flights no matter how you try and wrangle it (sole manipulator or which seat you were in). It is always best to underestimate you flight time accomplishments than to overestimate them. Get caught overestimating and it will cost you the job.
Sole manipulator means that there may in fact be more than one person on the plane, but you are the only dude flying. As in, the rest are not qualified pilots or not qualified to fly that plane. That answers (i).
For (ii), that is pretty obvious that if are the ONLY person in the plane you are thereby the pilot in command. However, many companies don't want you to list that as PIC if it was before you got you wings (mil) or commercial certificate (civ). I have a ton of solo jet time in my military training and it all counts towards my total, but most companies don't want to see it listed in my PIC info even though the FAA says I as PIC for those flights.
Lastly (iii) means that in a multi-crew plane, who ever is designated as the PIC by the company is the guy who gets the PIC time. You could fly from take-off to landing doing everything, but if you aren't the captain, you can't log PIC. You may be pilot at controls, but you are not in command. Basically whoever signs for the jet is the PIC.
To answer you question: No, you technically cannot log PIC if you were not the captain of those flights no matter how you try and wrangle it (sole manipulator or which seat you were in). It is always best to underestimate you flight time accomplishments than to overestimate them. Get caught overestimating and it will cost you the job.
04-18-2008, 06:59 AM
#10
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 5
Thanks for all your input. I'm not trying to skew my numbers in any way, but it says on the application, use 61.51 in determining PIC. I've never logged any right seat time as PIC (except helo) so I'm going to stick with that method for my application. Thanks again.
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