NetJets instrument times
03-03-2008, 05:42 PM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Front
Posts: 191
The PIC isn't logging apps/IMC. If it is your leg, log it. It doesn't get any easier. PF logs the landing, actual and approaches. If the SIC is PF, the PIC is not logging IMC, the App, or the landing.
The only time a PIC logs while the SIC is PF is total flight time. Because he "signed" for the airplane and is the ultimate authority.
UCLA: If you haven't already done so. Pull your times off CrewOps and see for yourself the way the company records it. PF gets all credit for the leg in regards to Instrument, approaches and the landing. As PIC, I get no credit for those items while the SIC is flying. Nor do I think I am entitled to something the SIC/PF accomplished.
03-03-2008, 06:20 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 359
No confusion at all. After 20+ years, I'm pretty sure someone would have pointed out my error in person, long before an internet post.
The PIC isn't logging apps/IMC. If it is your leg, log it. It doesn't get any easier. PF logs the landing, actual and approaches. If the SIC is PF, the PIC is not logging IMC, the App, or the landing.
The only time a PIC logs while the SIC is PF is total flight time. Because he "signed" for the airplane and is the ultimate authority.
UCLA: If you haven't already done so. Pull your times off CrewOps and see for yourself the way the company records it. PF gets all credit for the leg in regards to Instrument, approaches and the landing. As PIC, I get no credit for those items while the SIC is flying. Nor do I think I am entitled to something the SIC/PF accomplished.
The PIC isn't logging apps/IMC. If it is your leg, log it. It doesn't get any easier. PF logs the landing, actual and approaches. If the SIC is PF, the PIC is not logging IMC, the App, or the landing.
The only time a PIC logs while the SIC is PF is total flight time. Because he "signed" for the airplane and is the ultimate authority.
UCLA: If you haven't already done so. Pull your times off CrewOps and see for yourself the way the company records it. PF gets all credit for the leg in regards to Instrument, approaches and the landing. As PIC, I get no credit for those items while the SIC is flying. Nor do I think I am entitled to something the SIC/PF accomplished.
03-03-2008, 09:05 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Front
Posts: 191
"Operating" pilot does imply PF.
My "opinion" is supported by the ATP question bank, as was posted by CapnDan, and by FAR 61.51.
03-04-2008, 04:32 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: F/O- G-V/550
Posts: 1,163
I just asked the guy I'm flying with, he logs instrument whenever we're in the soup, he doens't care who's flying. The fact of the matter is that some pilots interpret it that way, and some don't, some will agree with you. We can sit here and disagree all we want, but is up to Heckler now......
03-04-2008, 05:09 AM
#25
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: G550/GLEX FO
Posts: 12
I appreciate every one's opinions, but what I'm asking for is facts. Can someone who is actually working there verify this for me?
I don't want to have even the appearance of playing with NJA's interpretation of the rules. I have all the records for where I currently work and could easily add that to my application and that would put me over the top.
I don't want to have even the appearance of playing with NJA's interpretation of the rules. I have all the records for where I currently work and could easily add that to my application and that would put me over the top.
03-04-2008, 09:45 AM
#26
Mil Leave
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: CRJ-200 Captain
Posts: 48
Anyone have the book "Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot". I'm studying it getting ready for a NetJets interview. P. 176 specifically addresses this. Part 61.51.. Under logbook entries, it says, 3)Conditions of flight (i) Day or night (ii) Actual instrument (iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, ....
Then in a blurb box to the side, he says to expound on this:
"Day, night, or instrument are conditions of flight. They may be logged by both the PIC and SIC regardless of who is actually manipulating the controls."
Both pilots always log day and night, so instruments should be no different.
So,,,,sounds good to me...I stand corrected from my previous post.
Then in a blurb box to the side, he says to expound on this:
"Day, night, or instrument are conditions of flight. They may be logged by both the PIC and SIC regardless of who is actually manipulating the controls."
Both pilots always log day and night, so instruments should be no different.
So,,,,sounds good to me...I stand corrected from my previous post.
03-04-2008, 09:59 AM
#27
Moderator
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,964
IMC beyond a certain point is really a useless number anyway similiar to landings. Whereas a pilots totals will typically show that their instrument time is equal to ten percent of their total time it is usually not an issue. Most pilots who are competitive for the upper echelon jobs are sitting at/near/around 5000 hours or so which would work out to roughly 500 hours of actual which is more than enough to meet minimums at nearly every employer that I could find while doing a quick internet search.
Although the issue of legality to log has been beat with a stick, there is really no reason to log IMC while you were not PF. So at the end of your career you end up with 2,500 hours of actual instead of 4,500 hours of actual, does it really make a difference?
Although the issue of legality to log has been beat with a stick, there is really no reason to log IMC while you were not PF. So at the end of your career you end up with 2,500 hours of actual instead of 4,500 hours of actual, does it really make a difference?
03-04-2008, 10:06 AM
#28
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: G550/GLEX FO
Posts: 12
To some extent I agree, but the reason I'm asking this is by the criteria I've logged IMC up this point I am shy of NJA's 250 hour in aircraft IMC minimum. If I include the amount while SIC I'm sure I have it licked. That is why I'm trying to get some info on NJA's take on this rather than people's opinions.
03-04-2008, 12:00 PM
#29
Mil Leave
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: CRJ-200 Captain
Posts: 48
Log it. Its a condition of flight just like night is a condition of flight. Both myslef and my FO log it every flight at a 121 Regional. Wasn't really thinking about it on my first post, but I log it now as a Captain, and I logged it as an FO. The only thing you don't log is the instrument approach that was flown by the other pilot. So update your logbook and apply!!!
03-04-2008, 12:06 PM
#30
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 9
heckler-I'm in the same boat as you. Been dying to get to NJA as soon as possible but held up with the instrument time. Flown the beech for 2500+ hours without autopilot, check airman, sim/flight instructor...I'm instrument proficient. And it's killing me to knock out 30 more hours of actual.
The way I see it is that when I get to the interview, I don't want to look like the guy who "interpreted" the regs to my advantage. If it's controversial as this subject is, I'm going to be on the conservative side, and suck it up and wait for the actual while I'm the PF. Some may see this as not fully using my resources, but when I look at the interviewer in the eye I want to be able to confidently say that I have the 250 instrument without hesitation. Just my 2 cents.
The way I see it is that when I get to the interview, I don't want to look like the guy who "interpreted" the regs to my advantage. If it's controversial as this subject is, I'm going to be on the conservative side, and suck it up and wait for the actual while I'm the PF. Some may see this as not fully using my resources, but when I look at the interviewer in the eye I want to be able to confidently say that I have the 250 instrument without hesitation. Just my 2 cents.
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