jungle

Nailed it as usual.

captjns

I've always said the the best part of being a "Cargo Caninous" operator was that there were no F/As to deal with.

But back to F/As and front end... did not American Airlines hosties walk out in the early '90s with no support from their front end? If so... What was the end result of that episode?

ATCsaidDoWhat

Interesting. Seems it's easy to slap them and validate Frank Lorenzo's theory that they are glorified waitresess, yet I doubt anyone here would last a day in the job because of our own egos...mine included. Having dated one in years past, you couldn't pay me enough to do the job today with the level of arrogant self serving passengers who demand everything for nothing.

Until we start treating them with respect and supporting them, nothing will change. Maybe it's time we all stood up as EMPLOYEES of the same company and said..."nuff."

We have yet to accept the fact that despite our licenses and our skillset, management sees us as nothing but a blue collar, hourly paid worker. As soon as they take out one group, they head for the next.

Sound familiar?

Ziggy

I would be carefull. Don't think for a minute that management doesn't have a target on your back. You are just as easily replaced as a 2 week trained F/A. Especially now!

HercDriver130

I really have no dog in this hunt, and perhaps I mis-spoke earlier. However, it seems to me that the prevailing attitude is that if Pilots strike for better work rules and higher wages... they expect all the other unions in the company to honor their picket lines.. and understand they will lose pay while the pilots are out on strike.... but if those other groups decide they want better work rules and better pay ( who doesnt want better pay ) that pilots are not willing to stand with their fellow workers? It sounds like pilots want their cake... and to eat it too. Hum.


side bar: I will admit my first comments were a bit harsh but it just seems sort of ... well... one sided. IF the BA pilots were striking ...for WHATEVER reason... they would expect the FA's to back them up...

stoki

I'd have to agree here.

As employees of one company they should all be backing up and supporting one another. Don't know the story but the FAs have to have some sort of reasoning for this.

Not to mention the second the FAs give up some, management will be banging on the pilots doors that its their turn to give up some more, because the FAs just did. If a small % of pay is going to make or break this giant company, then they have larger issues going on.

Huge amounts of smoke around this particular work action. What are the details on this?

KoruPilot

To Ziggy's comment that pilot are just as easily replaced as cabin crew. . . not sure what you're smokin' mate. Perhaps in your neck of the woods this is true, but I doubt it. Let me know what airline you're speaking of so I can stay well away. Lion Air perhaps? Even the drivers at Air Asia do pretty well. Seriously, what's the airline?

Even 250 hour cadetship pilots have a value of about $250K on them by the time they hit the front seat. An airline that doesn't look after that kind of investment deserves to go under.

Everybody should try to remember here that the pilots have already taken the hit at BA. And while I'm at it, the pilots at most airlines who've run into trouble have taken the hit first as well. Why is it, and I'm repeating myself here, the people with the one (groundies) to three (cabin crew) week courses tend to be the most demanding during times of crisis. I've seen Canadian Regional groundies at Calgary drop bags and walk off for an hour because the FO of a Dash8 had the gaul to go pick up a bag for a passenger trying to make a connection.

Sorry, but I'm just not unionist enough to buy that I have to follow someone down the road to destruction because we "as a group of employees" need to back each other to the ends of the earth. At my former airline we ended up with low grade staff travel because "that's what everybody else got". My dues don't get paid to the greater good of the company workers union, they go to ALPA, and I expect ALPA to represent me that way. In fact it was the cabin crew who rode our coat tails as far as allowances, which were very good. When we, as a pilot group, looked at being issued company cards for the allowances the cabin crew went ballistic, and for good reason; they were paying their mortgages with the money we negotiated. But I digress.

No, we are not equal. Not even close. In my career as a pilot I have loaded bags, fueled up the beasty, written up tickets, acted as an apprentice to the engineer (sometimes on the phone, in the wheel well), performed the passenger brief, handed out the inflight meals, etc. etc. Crazy thing is, I also flew the thing.

So, management, go ahead and bang the pilots door all you want. Shame on any group of pilots that doesn't have the self worth, self respect and personal understanding to know not only that what they do at the pointy end is by far the most important part of any airline operation, but that they have suffered more, made far more sacrifices over their career (which likely didn't start a week after going to their first airline open day)and quite simply have earned their position to a far higher degree than most of the airline (for the engineers who worked with me on piston engines in -30 degrees I take my hat off).

My career, like most pilots, was a long and hard road of living in the middle of nowhere, flying less than mechanically perfect airplanes into so me of the worst strips in some of the worst weather, for very little money with very little sleep. I paid my dues the hard way. I doubt that I'm alone here.

I dated cabin crew when was in the middle east and got to know more about what they did day to day, which was interesting as they all had the good sense to not look at it as a career. As a passenger I agree with that attitude. One person here pointed out that they put up with a lot from passengers, but all employees in the service industry put up with the same crap from patrons on a daily basis. I agree, I wouldn't want to do it, which is why I became a pilot. I'm going to get some people fuming here, but I just don't see it as a "career". Perhaps if you look at moving into management, but otherwise no.

As far as expecting any other group to back us up during industrial action, I disagree. I've been a member of a couple different ALPA groups, at both during times of negotiation, and we've never asked the cabin crew to "back us". No offense, really, but the thought of needing the backing of other groups, including the cabin crew, never really came up with our group. Personally, I honestly can say it never crossed my mind, and I never discussed such a thing with other pilots.

Maybe I'm off here. Maybe I should be more sympathetic toward the Unite people; I doubt it.

Please look at it from the point of view of a professional pilot. We've spent a huge amount time and money just getting to be in the same aircraft as a new hire FA, and if we lose our job's we lose that investment, and it is an investment. And I'm lucky. I know of many who did not make it to the point of flying for a decent outfit along the way. More than a few were killed doing their job, flying bags or bodies by themselves in nasty conditions all round. And that's it, that's the investment if you make it. Unfortunately many people have no idea of what it takes, if they did they'd understand why I bother to write thing's like this even though I know I'm going to get the same populist responses as have been written here. To those who do understand it, flight crew or not, I appreciate it.

I really try not to sound condescending, but I've seen this time and again, listened to FA's talk down to junior pilots, many I know because they either couldn't cut it as a pilot or didn't feal they should have to make the same sacrifices we did to get a job there(Air India pursers demanded and were given, why I do not know, the title captain. The actual captain is now called commander at AI. . .what a gong show). So you'll have to excuse me my sentiment in this particular case.

tomgoodman

I don't think I could do it either, but we did have one junior pilot who temporarily transferred to F/A rather than be furloughed. According to several reports, he was one of the best Flight Attendants they had ever seen.

Ziggy

Koru:
It doesn't matter what company you work for. Management wants to keep costs low, and production high. Just because pilots have a special skill set doesn't mean we are not replaceable. If needed, an airlines could push a few pilots through indoc, ground, and sim training to be line ready within weeks. This is where unity comes in. All labor needs to stand as one, realizing what happens to one can and will happen to the other. You may be making reference to the 0 to hero applicant. Yes I agree that would take months if not a year. But there are plenty of qualified, competent pilots on the market looking for a seat. So in that instance you are not safe, you are replaceable.

cactusmike

Koru - I agree with just about everything you say.

I do believe that we need to be mindful that in a global marketplace we need to watch what battles we fight. We have seen what happened to the Jalways pilots. We have even seen what happened to Continental in the 80s during the dark days of Frank Lorenzo. The union was broken and it took over a decade for some strikers to regain their jobs. Australia was a prime example of a union leading it's members into a battle they could not win. The list goes on. As a pilot group you have to have the leverage to counter the greater inherent strength of management. And you have to make it clear to management that it is cheaper to settle than to take a strike.

During the 90s the TWA flight attendents went on strike. ALPA could not honor that strike due to a no strike provision they had with Carl Icahn, a provision that was a condition of Icahn thwarting Lorenzo's theat to take over TWA. The TWA F/As were replaced in a month, ironicaly those same TWA F/As now threaten to cross an American Airlines picket line should the American F/As go out because the TWA f/As were dumped on the street after the TWA/AA merger.

There are very few times when pilots and cabin crews have common interests and the BA case is certainly not one of them.