mspano85

I have a couple of questions that I would appreciate some advice on. Maybe you all can help me decide what is important and what isn't

My ultimate goal is to get my ATP. I'm a long way from it at the moment, but I want to take steps to build specific hours along the way. My goal is to be applying to the Regionals by mid 2016.

As of right now, I am finishing up my PPL, and have been doing it in a Cessna 172S model. The school has just put a RG model on the line and it only costs $15 more per hour to rent.

Since I have to get my Commercial, I know it requires complex time. My question is how valuable is the complex time in a single engine aircraft to a potential employer such as a regional airline? For $15 more an hour would it be worth it to switch over into the RG and build more complex time.

My next situation has to do with getting my commercial rating, which I plan to start roughly around Summer 2014 after I finish my Instrument rating.

It seems like most pilots take the route of commercial and THEN get their multi and cfi ratings.

What I'm thinking of doing is getting my multi rating while I work on my commercial. If I recall, it only takes ~10 hours to get your multi rating, correct?

That way when I'm done with my commercial I can get my CFI, CFII, and then MEI.

My last question is in reference to getting my commercial either Part 61 or 141. 61 requires 250 and 141 requires 190. If I was reading correctly, obtaining the commercial license part 61 accepts up to 50 hours of simulator time towards the rating. I know the sim time doesn't count towards my total time, which is why I originally was going to do Part 141. However, at my current school, the flight sim is free and the instructors are free. They recommended doing 61 for that reason.

Is 61 the better route to go? Will an employer frown upon a 61 vs 141 license? Is the sim time worth it to get if it is free and counts toward my rating?

Thank you all for any advice. I look forward to working my way into a career flying in my future!

Ewfflyer

First off, prior to getting your Com rating, go cheap as possible, use the complex when you need to. This includes your CFI check ride, you just need it to demonstrate complex specific procedures such as normal and abnormal gear situations etc...

(Warning fragmented sentence ahead!). Cheapest would be PPL, then instrument, then build hrs towards Com rating and get comfortable in complex, get Com, then CFI, CFI-I(use fixed gear here also!!!), then get your multi com and MEI once you've built plenty of hours and experience. Mastering the basic principles will help you transition every step of the way, and if you need XXhrs anyways might as well get the best bang for the buck.

As far as 61 vs 141, it just comes down to preference and availability. If you are in a busy area, then the 61 schools are just as capable as any 141. A lot of 61 schools have aircraft to get ppl and inst, but no complex to move on from there. Do you like a structured environment with little room for exceptions? Or do you like a more relaxed schedule with the responsibility put on you. Living with parents, livening on your own, dorms, etc... All factors you need to consider.

Lastly, do you or are you working on a B.S.? All the flying is great, but without a 4yr degree you are going to be limited even if you have all the ratings and hours.

Bubbler

Be careful regarding the 250- and 190-hour requirements between 61 and 141. Just because it's 141 doesn't mean the curriculum will be aimed for the minimum 141 time; some schools use it simply for advertising and the hours in the curriculum could be closer to that of part 61. Just as well, simply because a school is Part 61 doesn't mean it has a "relaxed" curriculum. Just be sure to check that all out for yourself. And yes, 61.129(i) allows you to credit 50 hours from a sim or FTD towards the total aeronautical experience requirements.

The sim time can help you stay proficient when pursuing your instructor certificates, especially CFII if there's any decent amount of time between your instrument and CFII training.

mspano85

I'm married and have a stable living situation as my Wife and I own our home. I have a 4 year Bachelors, so that one is checked off. At my current job I work shift work. It is longer hours, 12 hours a day, but I get 15 days off a month and I usually fly twice a day on my off days. The best part is I'm a 5-10 minute drive from Frederick Airport where I train.

I was mainly curious if the complex time was desirable from an airline as to whether or not it was worth just getting more hours in the RG because it is only $15 more.

I'm probably going to go part 61 as long as the instrument hours count towards the rating. The simulator is free at my school so to have the freedom of a 61 program would be better.

I've been debating this move. You recommend going the cheaper route, and another flight center at the same airport has a C152 which is ~$60 total less including instructor than the 172S model at the other school.

That would be great for instrument, however, the school only has 152 and 172, non complex models. Maybe I can do the commercial with this school in terms of training, but rent a plane for some complex time with an instructor, roughly 10 hours worth, at another school just to get the time needed for the rating.

I like the school I'm at but they are definitely more expensive. If they had a 152 on the line it wouldn't be an issue. Plus they have multis too.

Perfect! I'm definitely leaning towards 61.

Also, I've been using FSX for years now and flying instrument approaches, etc. I don't think, crossing my fingers, that I will have many problems obtaining my instrument rating.

Thanks for the help guys.

pilotmec

Something to keep in mind also....
1. Instructors-the best instructor I've ever seen was at a small airport, part 61, and he prepared all his students to not only pass a checkride but to be knowledgable safe pilots. The absolute worst instructor I've ever seen came from a large 141 school. He should not have passed his private check but his school seemed to think he was able to pass a CFI Initial. He wasn't.
2. Build time the cheapest way possible, get instruction from the best place possible.

I had my private license and had passed my commercial and instrument written test. I was afforded the opportunity for a Multi rating so took that as commercial check with 50 mile restriction. I then completed my instrument rating and check in the twin and a commercial add on in a CE-172. Then went to work on Instructor ratings.

But I had all excellent instructors except one and I changed very quickly.
Remember, it's your money and your career.
And good luck.

JamesNoBrakes

I don't agree with the "part 61 is better" blanket statement, it's hit and miss. It's also not hands-down better for part 141 obviously either.

The advantage of part 61 can be flexibility, cost, and that you might find a very experienced instructor who knows a lot.

The disadvantages are sometimes the aircraft maintenance (not overseen by the FAA) and equipment, that the hour requirements get kind of ridiculous for some of the more advanced certificates, and that your instructor may not be very current on the PTS and regulations or may instruct very well in only one very specific area (like tailwheel instruction, or heck, maybe tailwheel wheel-landings only ). If you are looking to be a career pilot, be careful especially about the PTS and regulations. You don't want to get to a checkride and fail just because you were taught something wrong or something from 5 or 10 years ago.

Part 141 schools can be good. The benefits are often equipment and maintenance, the hours are more reasonable once you've gotten a certificate or rating, the teaching and general procedures should be standard between instructors (in reality, not exactly, but usually at least far "more standard" than the variance in part 61), the instructors are usually up to date on regulations and standards and the school is overseen by the FAA (hopefully to ensure just that). Usually these schools do a decent job of upholding the standards, which sometimes slips in part 61, but again this is generally, not case-by-case. There are usually well structured syllabus and courses.

The negatives are usually cost, rigidity of the program and the sequence of lessons, although there are usually pretty good reasons for this, they are not however set up well to deal with someone who does a lesson every other weekend or something like that. These are usually set up to be "career" building schools, getting people through their commercial or CFI certificates. The level of instructor competence is usually more of a known factor, but there can be fairly high turnover, leading to "the blind leading the blind". Mind you, nothing prevents this from happening in part 61 either and someone's age is not an indicator of their ability. This varies sometimes with the part 141 school and level of oversight by the FAA, bigger schools usually do a great job on this front and have lots of structure to ensure quality instruction and that you are getting your money's worth. Many smaller ones on the other hand will turn a brand new possibly poorly-trained CFI loose on new private pilot students without batting an eye. Always remember that you are the customer. Working at a 141 school, I always had to be an advocate for my students, but I had to tell them to be their own advocate too, to elevate things when necessary and to "get their way" when they weren't getting along with an instructor or making progress. Often times the 141 school at least has more resources to deal with such situations. Sometimes they even have aerobatic programs and other really neat stuff.

There is no wrong or right. For everyone that says there's some amazing part 61 instructor at some "mom and pop" FBO, the are just as many people trained by quality 141 schools and instructors. Maybe you'll find more instructors that actually WANT to be instructors when dealing with part 61, but there could be negative reasons they are doing that as well. I've done it both ways and had mixed results with both.

One word of warning I'll put out for 141 is to look at their Training Course Outlines and see how their courses flow and are structured. Many of the smaller ones take the "easy road" and use Gleim and Jeppesson syllabi that are available commercially. These are "ok", but honestly at this point you aren't really gaining much from the "141" part of the school, the school hasn't taken the time to develop their own TCOs and give you one document or at least a limited amount that easily and neatly show you the course progression (lesson 1, lesson 2, lesson 3, etc). It may be a little too early for you to make these kinds of decisions, but you can see how much work was put into the documents and gain an idea of how much attention to detail and work the school is willing to provide on the bigger scale. Based on my training experience, the better the TCO, the better the training.

dl773

Regarding 141 versus 61, for CPL it depends on how many hours it took you to complete your previous licenses.

If it takes you 60 hours to get your PPL, that's 25 more than the 141 minimum. That means if you continue under 141, you will finish with at least 215 hours. Not 190. If you need extra time to finish instrument and multi, that extra time also does not count towards your CPL under 141, so now you are looking at completing the 141 program with close to 250 hours anyways.

Under par 141, the 190 hours are not accumulated total time as in part 61. They are specific lessons that must ALL be completed.

All this extra time still goes in your logbook and it counts towards the 1500, but not towards the CPL unless you switch to part 61.

I recommend PPL and IR part 141, then figure out from there about your CPL. Just limit the amount of time building you do before instrument to a minimum, try to save as much as possible of it for later.

Oh and under part 61 CPL, you may be able to time build by logging safety pilot time. I am not aware of any 141 schools that allow time-sharing like that.

mspano85

Great info you guys. Yes, I believe I'm going to go 61 the rest of the way. My current school is a part 61 and 141 school so they keep their aircraft to 141 standards. I'll be moving to the other school because they have 152s. The move will allow a 50 more flight hours for my money over the 172, that is if I get my commercial at 250 hours on the dot.

I'm not sure how to do it but I need to take my check ride in the complex aircraft for commercial. Doing 61 should allow me to take my 10 hours in the complex 172RG now during my PPL, and count those complex hours towards the commercial in the future.

The multi may have to wait until I'm done!
The good news is I wouldn't lose my instructor, whom I like a lot as an instructor. He instructs at both schools.

word302

You don't want to fly that complex aircraft until you are close to ready for the commercial checkride. You have maneuvers specific to the commercial ride that will all be slightly different than in other airplanes. You'll want 10 to 15 hours in the cutlass right before the checkride to polish the maneuvers in that specific airplane.

Also remember that the 10 hours complex time required for the commercial must be dual.