Holding and the Checkride
12-16-2010, 04:48 AM
#1
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Holding and the Checkride
Just curious. I know the three holding entries as described in the PTS.
My method of entering a hold (other than direct) is to simply fly on the outbound course and turn on the protected side back to the fix and then hold as published.
Would this fail a checkride by not using a teardrop or parallel?
Just curious.
My method of entering a hold (other than direct) is to simply fly on the outbound course and turn on the protected side back to the fix and then hold as published.
Would this fail a checkride by not using a teardrop or parallel?
Just curious.
12-16-2010, 05:03 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
It shouldn't cause you to fail a checkride.
Problem is the FAA has said that to DPEs in newsletters a number of times, which suggests that there are those who don't accept it. If you end up with one of those you may get some extra questioning.
But if I read your post correctly, all you've really done is dump the teardrop. Flying the outbound course (on other than a direct entry) and turning back on the protected side is a parallel entry (never mind the silliness of people fighting about whether you are "allowed" to maintain better situational awareness by tracking outbound rather than hanging on the unprotected side)
Problem is the FAA has said that to DPEs in newsletters a number of times, which suggests that there are those who don't accept it. If you end up with one of those you may get some extra questioning.
But if I read your post correctly, all you've really done is dump the teardrop. Flying the outbound course (on other than a direct entry) and turning back on the protected side is a parallel entry (never mind the silliness of people fighting about whether you are "allowed" to maintain better situational awareness by tracking outbound rather than hanging on the unprotected side)
12-16-2010, 11:01 AM
#3
Does NOT get weekends off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: ERJ - 145
Posts: 1,631
Have you ever seen that picture of a hold divided up into the "Direct" "Parallel" and "Tear-drop" shapes? Some people just have it divided into "Direct" and "Tear-drop", they don't even waste time with parallel. There is nothing wrong with it, as entry methods are only a recommendation.
12-17-2010, 08:04 AM
#4
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: A-300 F/O
Posts: 281
None of this is clear anywhere you look, but you are not alone in your struggles. Thanks for bringing this up, because in doing the research to try to answer your question I found a few things in both the AIM and the Air Force have slightly changed from the way I learned them, so I learned something today. Now I will not feel so quilty watching Maury tell women the multiple men they have on stage "you are not the father" on my day off.
(d) While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
The above is from the AIM. I would swear the wording on this has changed, but I am not home to dig out one of my old copies of the AIM, but I think it used to say "While other entry techniques may enable...." and at the end of the paragraph it said "...are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA." Thus mixing and matching the term technique and procedure leaving one to scratch their head in wonder. Leading one to the military terms of pronique, and techcedure--i.e. this technique is so widely used everyone thinks it is procedure, or this is my technique and if you want to pass this sortie, you had better do it my way.
Below is what the Air Force instrument flight manual AFM 11-217 says. Basically for us teardropping is always optional and they recommend only teardropping if your heading at the initial crossing of the holding fix is within 45 degrees of your selected outbound teardrop heading. e.g. holding east of a fix on the 090 radial in a standard holding pattern and approaching from the west, so a 30 degree teardrop would mean an outbound heading of 060 into the protected airspace. If my heading at fix crossing were anywhere between 015 and 105, then I could teardrop. Otherwise, just turn in the shortest direction to parallel.
The other big difference is more syntax than anything else. What the AIM would call direct entry, coming in from the south on a 360 degree heading, the Air Force would term parallel, because this heading is not within 70 degrees of the inbound course, but again the bottom line in both methods, is the aircraft will turn to the right upon crossing the fix and turn in the shortest direction to parallel the outbound course.
The AF Manual is a blend of technique and procedure. Only bold printing is procedure, everything else is technique. None of the holding entry method stuff is printed in bold.
Sorry I am not computer savy enough to get the AF holding method diagram into here next to the AIM diagram so you coud see the differences, but if you go to this link, the diagrams are on page 155 and 156.
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/share...AN11-217V1.pdf
8.3.4. Entry Turns. There are a number of techniques to enter holding which should keep you within holding airspace. Although any technique may be used to enter holding, using the commonly accepted ones described below will keep you within holding airspace and insure your actions are predictable to the air traffic controller. Therefore, it is recommended that you use one of the described techniques.
8.3.4.1. Technique A (―70 Degree Method‖ Figure 8.3):
8.3.4.1.1. Within 70°. If the inbound holding course is within 70° of the aircraft heading, turn outbound in the direction of holding and onto the holding side (direct entry) Upon completion of the outbound leg, proceed direct or intercept the holding course to the fix.
8.3.4.1.2. Not within 70°. If the inbound holding course is not within 70° of the aircraft heading, turn outbound in the shorter direction to parallel the holding course. If this turn places you on the non-holding side, either parallel (adjust for wind) or attempt to intercept the holding course inbound. If you are on the non-holding side or on the holding course at the completion of the outbound leg, turn toward the holding side, then proceed direct or intercept the holding course to the fix.
8.3.4.1.3. Teardrop. The teardrop entry may be used at pilot discretion when entering holding on a heading conveniently aligned with the selected teardrop course. As a guide, consider yourself conveniently aligned when your aircraft heading is within 45° of the selected teardrop course. Upon reaching the holding fix, turn on the holding side and proceed on an outbound track not to exceed 45° from the outbound course. (Depending on your offset requirements, a teardrop course of less than 45° may be desired.) If course guidance is available, attempt to intercept the selected teardrop course outbound. Upon completion of the outbound teardrop course/heading, turn toward the holding course to intercept the holding course inbound.
Finally, I thought I had something really good, but this is from the FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook FAA-H-8264. I thought it was about holding when I remembered looking this up before, but it was talking about procedure turns. It basically says if there as long as there is not a holding in lieu of or a procedure track with a hard black line to follow, you can do anything you want to reverse course, if you remain in protected airspace. Too bad this doesn't say the same thing for holding patterns, because then it would be a clearcut affirmation of the holding diagram being a recommended technique and not a procedure.
During a procedure turn, a
maximum speed of 200 knots indicated airspeed
cross the IAF outbound
(d) While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
The above is from the AIM. I would swear the wording on this has changed, but I am not home to dig out one of my old copies of the AIM, but I think it used to say "While other entry techniques may enable...." and at the end of the paragraph it said "...are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA." Thus mixing and matching the term technique and procedure leaving one to scratch their head in wonder. Leading one to the military terms of pronique, and techcedure--i.e. this technique is so widely used everyone thinks it is procedure, or this is my technique and if you want to pass this sortie, you had better do it my way.
Below is what the Air Force instrument flight manual AFM 11-217 says. Basically for us teardropping is always optional and they recommend only teardropping if your heading at the initial crossing of the holding fix is within 45 degrees of your selected outbound teardrop heading. e.g. holding east of a fix on the 090 radial in a standard holding pattern and approaching from the west, so a 30 degree teardrop would mean an outbound heading of 060 into the protected airspace. If my heading at fix crossing were anywhere between 015 and 105, then I could teardrop. Otherwise, just turn in the shortest direction to parallel.
The other big difference is more syntax than anything else. What the AIM would call direct entry, coming in from the south on a 360 degree heading, the Air Force would term parallel, because this heading is not within 70 degrees of the inbound course, but again the bottom line in both methods, is the aircraft will turn to the right upon crossing the fix and turn in the shortest direction to parallel the outbound course.
The AF Manual is a blend of technique and procedure. Only bold printing is procedure, everything else is technique. None of the holding entry method stuff is printed in bold.
Sorry I am not computer savy enough to get the AF holding method diagram into here next to the AIM diagram so you coud see the differences, but if you go to this link, the diagrams are on page 155 and 156.
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/share...AN11-217V1.pdf
8.3.4. Entry Turns. There are a number of techniques to enter holding which should keep you within holding airspace. Although any technique may be used to enter holding, using the commonly accepted ones described below will keep you within holding airspace and insure your actions are predictable to the air traffic controller. Therefore, it is recommended that you use one of the described techniques.
8.3.4.1. Technique A (―70 Degree Method‖ Figure 8.3):
8.3.4.1.1. Within 70°. If the inbound holding course is within 70° of the aircraft heading, turn outbound in the direction of holding and onto the holding side (direct entry) Upon completion of the outbound leg, proceed direct or intercept the holding course to the fix.
8.3.4.1.2. Not within 70°. If the inbound holding course is not within 70° of the aircraft heading, turn outbound in the shorter direction to parallel the holding course. If this turn places you on the non-holding side, either parallel (adjust for wind) or attempt to intercept the holding course inbound. If you are on the non-holding side or on the holding course at the completion of the outbound leg, turn toward the holding side, then proceed direct or intercept the holding course to the fix.
8.3.4.1.3. Teardrop. The teardrop entry may be used at pilot discretion when entering holding on a heading conveniently aligned with the selected teardrop course. As a guide, consider yourself conveniently aligned when your aircraft heading is within 45° of the selected teardrop course. Upon reaching the holding fix, turn on the holding side and proceed on an outbound track not to exceed 45° from the outbound course. (Depending on your offset requirements, a teardrop course of less than 45° may be desired.) If course guidance is available, attempt to intercept the selected teardrop course outbound. Upon completion of the outbound teardrop course/heading, turn toward the holding course to intercept the holding course inbound.
Finally, I thought I had something really good, but this is from the FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook FAA-H-8264. I thought it was about holding when I remembered looking this up before, but it was talking about procedure turns. It basically says if there as long as there is not a holding in lieu of or a procedure track with a hard black line to follow, you can do anything you want to reverse course, if you remain in protected airspace. Too bad this doesn't say the same thing for holding patterns, because then it would be a clearcut affirmation of the holding diagram being a recommended technique and not a procedure.
During a procedure turn, a
maximum speed of 200 knots indicated airspeed
(KIAS) should be observed from first crossing the
course reversal IAF through the procedure turn
maneuver to ensure containment within the obstruction
clearance area. Unless a holding pattern or
teardrop procedure is published, the point where
pilots begin the turn and the type and rate of turn are
optional. If above the procedure turn minimum
altitude, pilots may begin descent as soon as they
course reversal IAF through the procedure turn
maneuver to ensure containment within the obstruction
clearance area. Unless a holding pattern or
teardrop procedure is published, the point where
pilots begin the turn and the type and rate of turn are
optional. If above the procedure turn minimum
altitude, pilots may begin descent as soon as they
cross the IAF outbound
12-17-2010, 08:13 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: 127.0.0.1
Posts: 2,115
I did my IFR Checkride in 1994. I was pretty sure I had to know the 3 ways to enter a hold for the test. In order to make my life simpler, I enter holds the way I described above. Just curious if that would be a bust. Sounds like it might depend on the DE.
12-17-2010, 08:40 AM
#6
Are we there yet??!!
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,010
It has been many years for me also but my understanding is you cannot bust on a holding entry as long as you stay in the protected airspace of the hold. I think it changed in the late 90s.
12-18-2010, 10:57 PM
#7
New Hire
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 4
I go to a part 141 school, and failed my stage 2 (of 2) instrument check ride for entering a hold with a teardrop entry instead of a paralell entry. My reasoning was that I am simply more comfortable doing a tear drop, and the the entrys are only recomended. My hold was fine, and that was the only reason for failing given in the debrief.
This wasn't the checkride, but regaurdless, just do what the FAA suggests. If you think this COULD get you into trouble, you probably shouldn't do it.
This wasn't the checkride, but regaurdless, just do what the FAA suggests. If you think this COULD get you into trouble, you probably shouldn't do it.
12-19-2010, 12:27 PM
#9
Does NOT get weekends off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: ERJ - 145
Posts: 1,631
I go to a part 141 school, and failed my stage 2 (of 2) instrument check ride for entering a hold with a teardrop entry instead of a paralell entry. My reasoning was that I am simply more comfortable doing a tear drop, and the the entrys are only recomended. My hold was fine, and that was the only reason for failing given in the debrief.
This wasn't the checkride, but regaurdless, just do what the FAA suggests. If you think this COULD get you into trouble, you probably shouldn't do it.
This wasn't the checkride, but regaurdless, just do what the FAA suggests. If you think this COULD get you into trouble, you probably shouldn't do it.
I now teach at a part 141 school and the examiners will fail you for doing the wrong hold entry.
More of the 61v141 debate I guess...
12-19-2010, 12:49 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
I took my part 61 checkride and my examiner said I could enter how ever the heck I wanted to as long as I stayed within protected airspace and held as described.
I now teach at a part 141 school and the examiners will fail you for doing the wrong hold entry.
More of the 61v141 debate I guess...
I now teach at a part 141 school and the examiners will fail you for doing the wrong hold entry.
More of the 61v141 debate I guess...
USMCFLYR
