N261ND

well uncle bose, why don't you fill us in a little more on why an aviation degree is so worthless, because i'm still not sold. and don't say money, because any investment in your education is priceless.

If you think you can't get a job with a non-aviation organization with an aviation degree...dream on. A person with a BS in aviation has just as good of chance of getting a non-aviation related job as someone else...granted its not a specialty, like enginieering. Like I said...you have to go after the jobs....speaking of perspective, how long has it been since you've been on the job market? That is what we are talking about. we're talking about now, not 20-30 years ago, or "years ago", as you stated. This is a flight training forum for persons early in their training.

I may lack hindsight, because I'm not 50 years old, flying for a legacy, but I do have first hand experience and perspective of what its like to be a RECENT college grad.

I may lack "perspective, experience, hindsight, and therefore, credibility" but i do know that hard work can take you anywhere you want to go.

If you have a degree in aviation and want to get out of aviation DO IT! An aviation degree is just as good as mostly any other degree.
You said it yourself Uncle Bose: "With a bachelor's degree, you meet the prerequisites for law school." think about that.

Don't blame the degrees, the schools, the profession...blame yourself for not working hard enough and persevering to go after what you want.

Uncle Bose

That's right. This particular forum is for those early on in their training, and they come here to seek advice from those with actual experience. All of you aviation degree supporters getting together and congratulating each other on what a wonderful education you're getting, without any perspective on its real-world worth, is NOT valuable advice. In fact, it's detrimental.

Now let me explain what I mean by "useless" aviation degree. It grants no advantages to a job seeker in any field, including its own. You're right in that it qualifies you for a great many jobs that don't require a specialized degree. The problem is, so does any other degree. Any other degree, which could cost about a quarter as much. You claim cost isn't a valid argument due to the inherent pricelessness of any investment in education, (incidentally, right after questioning the investment required for a graduate degree), but when there are alternatives of lower cost and equal effectiveness, cost becomes a major consideration.

To summarize, the aviation degree isn't the only pointless degree out there. Any degree that has no advantages over another in the job market is basically pointless. Unfortunately, the big-name aviation degrees cost three to four times as much as a typical liberal arts degree at a state college, with no inherent advantages over any of those in any industry, including their own, to justify that cost.

LAfrequentflyer

Even in your 40s your not too old to start an aviation career. There are hurdles. However, a motivated / studious person can still get to a regional in their 40s.

-LAFF

JMT21

For reduced mins at Horizon they specify that the applicant must have a B.S. aviation degree. I'm sure that the other airlines that reduce their mins would also expect you to have an aviation degree.

Tuition is the same for aviation majors as it is for any other major. The flight expenses are separate, but your going to have to pay for the ratings at some point anyway. I can't speak for the other aviation schools, but UND's flight expenses are on the high end of the average. You get what you pay for.

I would not advise anyone to get an aviaton degree, but someone has got to keep you honest. An aviation degree has worked out fine for many and not so well for some. It's important to think about what you would do if tomarrow you couldn't ever fly again. Have a back up plan is the main thing.

Uncle Bose

I appreciate that, and I'm glad to see you strive for honestly as well. Even after espousing the (alleged) advantages of an aviation degree, you still recommend against it...that says a lot.

More often than not these promises of reduced minimums sound great in a recruiting presentation, but don't exist in practice. Regardless, how much further below 1000 TT can minimums go? Three or four months less time of being a CFI isn't worth the indebtedness.

Tuition is the same for aviation majors as it is for any other major--at THAT particular school. The aviation majors paying private or nonresident tuition fees (which is most of them) would be paying far less as residents at a good state school, many of which are vastly more reputable and more highly ranked than UND, FIT, or ERAU.

Aviation degrees have worked out fine for many (if you consider "fine" landing a job just as easily attained with another degree), but non-aviation degrees have worked out fine for many more. Again, my contention is not that aviation degrees CAN'T work out--it's just that there are other options that don't result in newly minted CFIs and regional FOs barely (if at all) able to cover monthly payments on student loans, let alone living expenses. There are far better ways to start a flight training career.

I will concede that the tuition cost at UND is reasonable for many, given their special state-based resident categories, compared to ERAU and FIT. However, the cost isn't just monetary. There's also a cost in time, which is four years spent confined to a tiny academic realm, completely useless and irrelevant to any facet of existence aside from flying airplanes. The natural progression of flight training and subsequent instructing is what's necessary for a solid foundation in an aviation career, not a degree program bloated and padded with simple fluff in order to stretch vocational training into the 120 semester hours required for accreditation.

JMT21

I 'espoused' one advantage which, as far as I can tell, is the only one, dick.

They do exist in practice, in fact it's pretty common. How much further below 1000 TT can they go?...I've seen over 400 hours; 300 happens all the time.

I consider 'fine' to be all the pilots out there who have earned an aviaiton degree with the sole intention of being a pilot; they are successful and doing what they love.

I agree...it's reason I'm no longer an aviaiton major.

If you are talking about UND with that your pretty far off...like out in the weeds on this one.

As I said before, I wouldn't recommend an aviation degree to anyone. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone go into debt to finance an aviation degree as there are much better ways of going about getting your ratings and experience.

Whats your background Bose? You sound like a scorned man. Are a professional pilot or aviation major?

N261ND

Actually, reduced minimums do exist in practice. I'm doing an internship with a regional as we speak. I have been told by my boss that I will have NO hiring minimums if I don't completely screw up. None. That will save me more than a couple of months of instructing.

"There's also a cost in time, which is four years spent confined to a tiny academic realm, completely useless and irrelevant to any facet of existence aside from flying airplanes."

---wow--->

UND has a strong liberal arts foundation surrounded by a variety of professional and specialized programs. UND is one of only 46 public universities in the nation with both accredited graduate schools of law and medicine.

UND enrolls 12,954 students (Fall 2005) in 191 fields of study from baccalaureate through doctoral and professional degrees.

But I agree with most of what is said above...very valid points. Glad we could find some common ground!

Uncle Bose

Name calling? On a message board? I'm shocked.
Which, again, isn't worth the years of student loan debt.
Then "even more fine" would be all the pilots out there who have earned a non-aviation degree with the sole intention of being a pilot; they are successful and doing what they love, and aren't drowning in debt.
As a UND student, you're not without your own biases...every student thinks their school is a cut above the others.
Both...although I'm in the process of correcting the mistake that was the aviation degree.

Uncle Bose

Sounds like a deal, but whether or not that's a good thing is an entirely new debate.
None of that really matters in this context, since we're talking about aviation degrees. From the macro view, however, UND is a third tier national university with a 73% acceptance rate, and no ranked programs to its name. For ND residents that's fine, but nothing to pay out-of-state fees for.

JMT21

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell a pilot 'drowning in debt' with an over priced aviation degree would know about college selection...but thanks for the expert opinion anyway.