PearlPilot

As I am nearing my Instrument checkride, I discovered on my last lesson that I am absolutely horrible at holding. I "get it" when I read it on the textbook. I look at a holding pattern and I can basically figure out how to enter it. I am 100% clear on how to enter a teardrop, parallel, and the easiest, direct. From the extensive reading I did about holding, I have come to realize that you really don't need to exhibit a standard entry method as long as you can remain in the protected area. For an example, Barry Schiff in (Proficient Pilot Vol. 2) mentions that, all one has to do is turn outbound once abeam the fix and fly that heading for 1 minute before turning inbound. From experience, I have realized that it takes a couple of turns to get fully established.
So here is where I am confused. Say I enter a teardrop entry. I hit the fix (VOR), and then turn outbound (minus 15 degrees or so to stay in the protected area) and fly that heading for 1 minute. Then I turn inbound and track that heading until the VOR switches to FROM. So exactly where do you start the clock? Do you start it when the VOR flips or when wings level on the outbound heading? Do you time the inbound leg too? The last time my CFII had me fly the outbound leg for 1:10 and the inbound leg for 50 seconds. Shouldn't these legs be 1 minute?
Also if there is any wind correction needed on the inbound heading, do you triple or double it on the outbound heading?
Finally, I would appreciate any methods that you can offer also any checkride tips on holding patterns...
Thanks!

Cubdriver

The first full flip of the to-from indicator on the outbound leg is when you are beam the vor on the outbound leg and that is when the timer should start but it may be +/- the full roll out. You should have already set the inbound course just prior to the initial pass over the vor as part of your 5 t's (turn- time twist- throttle-talk). Fly for a minute if you have no clue what the winds are doing, or if you know the winds and can make a guess as to what is needed to make the timing work out, then fly accordingly more with a headwind, or less time with a tailwind. Use the standard rule of thumb to add or subtract time after you find out what the discrepancy is on the first inbound leg. The rule is, whatever the + or - discrepancy in time is in this experimental leg, then double it or half it depending on which situation it is plus or minus. Ie. if I get there 20 seconds early then then double it and fly 40 seconds extra on the outbound leg. Your CFI probably knew the winds would make these legs other than 1 minute apiece, but 1 minute is for no wind conditions.

If it is an NDB holding pattern then it is slightly harder to know when you are abeam the fix, so just start the timer when you roll out on the outbound heading. You can verify this is about right by seeing the needle is pointing toward the NDB at 90 degrees, but obviously if you are crabbing it may be a guessing game, so just use the roll out to decide.

WalkOfShame

The only time that is important during the entry is, per your example, the 1 min. outbound on the teardrop entry. Once you hit that 1 min., start your turn to intercept the inbound course. Its not required that you time from your course intercept to the VOR on your intercept, but you can do it if you want. I didn't usually have my students do it because it didn't offer much in the way of information for how to adjust your outbound leg to make your inbound 1 min. Then start your time when you are abeam the VOR (or wings level...doesn't really matter) on the outbound leg. Usually, baring any extreme winds aloft, my first outbound would be 1 min so that I could get a baseline time for the inbound. The ONLY leg that has to be 1 min is the INBOUND. Then I would adjust my outbound leg on the next legs to make my inbound 1 min. For the wind correction, once you get established inbound to the VOR on the entry, look at the wind correction. You will then triple it (someone correct me if I'm wrong, its been a while) and thats your outbound heading.

Hope that makes sense. Good luck!

Cubdriver

Disagree. Not required perhaps, true, but this is the "experiment" that tells you whether you need to add time to your outbound or subtract, and exactly how much in either case. You definitely need to keep track of it. Hock the timer when you roll out of the turn inbound to the fix. You need to know whether you get there early or late. For that matter, time all legs while flying a hold because it's useful information. Once you get the timings and headings all established just hone the timings if you like, but the main work is already done so it does not matter as much if you are a couple of seconds off once the basics are established.

Disagree. Use the standard method, it works. The method is, when you get the first flip of the to-from indicator near the rollout on the outbound, that tells you when you are abeam the fix. The reason this is preferable is there could be a lot of positional error involved if the winds are kicking up, and this is the only sure way to know when you are abeam the vor. If the fix consists of an NDB then it is not possible to use this method of course so use the roll-out method.

Agree.

Double (not triple) is the standard practice. I would add that all ths stuff is supposed to make life easy and safe and while total perfection is not required doing this maneuver, it is nice to try and be accurate. Why not? You are likely to do a hold in real life almost never. The only time real holds are done is in poor weather where airplanes are stacked up by ATC waiting to get a chance to shoot approaches to minimums usually, so at that time you would like to be sharp on your skills.

fjetter

One thing that students often sometimes neglect when it comes to holds is to apply an anticipated cross-wind correction when entering the hold. Make sure you copy down the local winds aloft on your kneeboard prior to departure. Now you don't have to know exactly how much to adjust it but a logical guess goes a long way on getting established in the hold after the entry.

Example: Winds 360 at 30kts hold on 090R standard turns with a teardrop entry. On that entry fly a heading of 040 or 050 rather than the academic 060 heading. This will minimize you blowing though the inbound due to strong tailwinds when turning inbound and allow you to get established on that inbound so that you know exactly how much to correct on the following outbound.

Another technique I have is to use a 1:30 for the parallel entry rather than the one minute. This works as max holding speed below 6000 is 200kias and most training airplanes when holding are flown 90-100kias. Using 1:30 still keeps me well in the protected area and again allows me to get better established on that first inbound after the entry.

Gajre539

You adjust the outbound leg for winds so that the inbound leg is one minute.
- Start the timer on the outbound leg when you are abeam the station (temporary Nav flag or change in to/from indicator). If it is a NDB hold, start the timer when the needle points abeam (90 deg off from your heading).
- Start the timer on the inbound leg when you roll wings level.

Let's say you go out on turn one - Outbound leg is 1 min, Inbound leg is 50 seconds. On the second turn, extend the outbound leg to 1 min and 10 seconds, so your inbound leg becomes 1 minute.

Let's say you go out on another hold - Outbound leg is 1 min, Inbound leg is 1 min and 10 secs. Shorten the outbound leg by 10 seconds to a total of 50 seconds, so the Inbound leg is 1 minute.

As for wind correction, see how many degrees you need to hold the needle centered on the inbound and double it on the outbound. If you double it and you still don't get the results you want after 2 or 3 full circles, loops, circuits, whatever you want to call it; then triple it. I flew a hold years ago where my outbound leg had a 50 deg. wind correction and was 15 seconds long!

Make sure you get a standard briefing and ask for Winds aloft at 3000 feet, assuming you aren't going higher. If your outbound leg is 180 and Winds at 3000 feet are 120 at 12 knots, put in a wind correction of 10 deg and fly a heading of 170 on the first outbound turn. Most of the time, you can check to see if the forcasted winds aloft are accurate while you are flying towards a fix on a radial or bearing.

Ewfflyer

In today's training environment, and the FAA wanting to promote the FITS attitude, I can't believe "load hold into GPS, hit "nav" on AP, watch computer do all the work and thinking for you"

All great points, holding is an art as well as a science. Actually knowing the winds is your greatest advantage. That will make/break your turns and intercepts, and it is often overlooked(i'm not sure why with all of today's tech, and even old tech). Constantly update your wind corrections/etc.. to get to know where it's coming from, and a general velocity.

Drawing a simple layout of the hold, with an Arrow/Number to represent the wind should help you also get your mind in tune with it. Write down how many seconds you extend/shorten your outbound so you remember them. Make changes, etc... It's just another one of those things that just take practice, regardless if you ever use one or not.

I have over 5100hrs, and in 2000hrs flying 135 freight, I had to hold once and had instructions for another one that got cancelled, 1500hrs at my current job, I haven't once. I have however done plenty of course-reversals on approaches and demonstrated holds on IPC's, and equipment demonstrations and test flights. So real world vs training world, it just doesn't happen, but you better know what you're doing

Cubdriver

The G1000 system displays wind vectors which helps you know what to expect, but I think the pilot still has to decide on crab angle and timing. Of course they can look at the magenta ground track vector on the HSI to tell them if the crab is working, and how much to add or subtract, so it is greatly simplified. Part of the traditional art of doing holds involved using various methods to know what the upper winds were doing. There are a number of rules of thumb to use for each wind situation, a bit too much to list here. I recall having the same trouble as the OP when I was an instrument student, my instructor either did not know any tricks or he was too lazy to teach them to me. As a consequence I hated holds and wanted to think of them as a either a waste of time or a hopelessly sloppy maneuver, when the problem was I had never been taught how to do them properly. I have far more respect for hold techniques now than I ever did as an instrument student. They are challenging to do well and I have seen very advanced pilots get their panties in a wad in practice holds.

jsfBoat

As per hold entries, I have a simple way, but whatever works for you is what you should go with. I teach that, for the standard holding pattern, if the hold side heading is LESS than your heading, the entry is Parallel. If the holding heading is GREATER than your heading, the entry is Tear Drop. If it's in between, go with Teardrop. If it's reatively aft, it would be a direct entry. Example: Hold on the 270 DEG Radial, your heading is 180 DEG, the entry is Teardrop. If it's a NONSTANDARD pattern, reverse the Teardrop and Parrallel for the above method. It's confusing in the beginning, but if you drill yourself, it will become easier than trying to do the 3 finger split. Hope this helps, but also draw it out on paper to see for yourself.

USMCFLYR

I was never a fan of holding either. thank goodness that holding in my prior community was basically thought of as an emergency procedure
The USN (and USMC boat) guys get real good at figuring out timing though. That hit those push points (holding fix) at +/- 10 seconds at darn near 250 kts (or the ability to quickly get there) through some pretty interesting and entertaining methods. The whole push timing was the wore part of the simulator training for me during carrier qualification!

I've enjoyed hearing all of the different techniques discussed here by you Cub and others. Thanks for sharing. PP - - hopefully you're not getting overloaded with all of the different techniques. Maybe you'll find yourself in a position (during some of that X/C practice) to practice many different holds with varying entries, weather conditions, and timing problems.

USMCFLYR