Mitragorz

I pulled this off of another forum:

From: Single Engine ATP? - Pilots of America Message Board


Maybe I'm reading it wrong (or maybe he is wrong), but is this actually correct?

I hold an ATP AMEL, and CPL ASEL, ASES, AMES. They were all Commercials before I took my ATP ride, so should I have actually walked out of the ride with "ATP Multiengine Land and Sea, Commercial Single Engine Land and Sea?"

I'm a little skeptical. I did look up that bit in the FARs, and it doesn't differentiate between Land and Sea... but it does mention:

And

I know that AMEL and AMES are two different classes, and that's why I'm skeptical. However, why would the regs in this part of this section differentiate between single and multiengine, and not land and sea? I understand why they differentiate later down, due to the different requirements of single vs. multi, but it seem like here, "The practical test for an airline transport pilot certificate is given for an airplane category and class rating" would be sufficient.


I don't know either way, maybe someone can shed some light on whether this guy was onto something or if he's just blowing hot air.

Mitragorz

Anyone have any input?

Twin Wasp

I would go to the source, the F-SIMS. what we used to call the "Inspector's Handbook." I put all this in because it explains the Type Ratings are upgraded (in category and class) which might be where the idea the category and class would be upgraded on any checkride. Read all the way through to the last paragraph.

5-705 PILOT CERTIFICATE LEVEL AND CATEGORY AND CLASS RATING. The category and class rating(s) for which the applicant has qualified on the original or subsequent ATP practical tests are entered on the ATP certificate. The following are the aircraft category and class ratings for the ATP certificate:

A. ATP Certificate.

· Airplane Single-Engine Land,
· Airplane Single-Engine Sea,
· Airplane Multiengine Land,
· Airplane Multiengine Sea,
· Rotorcraft Helicopter, and
· Powered-Lift.
B. Type Ratings. Type rating tests are conducted to the ATP standard for all grades of pilot certificate. Therefore, all type ratings in that category and class of aircraft for which the practical test is conducted in are upgraded after successful completion of the practical test. For example, a person who holds a B-737, DC-3, and SK-62 at the commercial pilot certificate level, and later satisfactorily completes an ATP practical test in a CE-750, would have his/her B-737 and DC-3 type ratings elevated up to the ATP certificate level. The SK-62 would not elevate up because the practical test was in a multiengine airplane. However, when the person satisfactorily completes an ATP practical test in a helicopter, the SK-62 would then elevate up to the ATP certificate level. Therefore, all of the type ratings held on the superseded certificate carry forward at the new certificate level within category and class.

NOTE: A type rating for a single-engine airplane may not be upgraded to the ATP level.
1) Except for type ratings and, under some circumstances, the instrument rating, other ratings indicated on the superseded pilot certificate are carried forward at the commercial, private, or recreational level, as indicated on the superseded certificate.

Mitragorz

My head hurts

Looking at that, I assume that the guys is incorrect? Ratings would NOT be carried forward at the ATP level?

However... If I were to go into a Commercial AMES ride while holding Private AMEL/ASEL/ASES ratings, they would all bump up to Commercial after the Commercial AMES ride?

Mitragorz

Does anyone happen to have an ASA ATP PTS book and can quote what's said on "Page 8?"

I assume it's the ASA version, because I looked up the FAA book online and "Page 8" had nothing that pertained to this.

Twin Wasp

No, what it's saying is a type rating is brought up to the higher grade because you flew to ATP standards. Say you have a PVT SEL/MEL and get a DC-3 type. Then you do a COMM MEL in a 310. The DC-3 type will jump up to a COMM because you've shown you can fly it to COMM standards already. You'll have a COMM MEL/DC-3 and PVT SEL. And later if you get your ATP in a LR-Jet, the Three type will also be on the ATP because, again, you'n shown you could fly a Three to ATP standards. So you'd have ATP MEL DC-3 LR-JET PVT SEL.

In your example, you've shown you can fly AMEL/ASEL and ASES to the PVT test standards. So now you go out and pass a COMM AMES checkride. But you've never shown you can fly the SEL/MEL/SES above the PVT test standards.

Mitragorz

Ok, I think I understand that...

But basically what I want to know is, is what that guy said true or false? Going into my ATP AMEL ride holding Comm. AMEL/AMES, and passing, should I have walked out with ATP AMEL/AMES? That's what I got out of his statement, but I'm not so good at deciphering regs... So far, it seems like a no.

Twin Wasp

Per the book that tells Feds how to give checkrides, he's wrong. The FAA has four class ratings for airplanes, listed above. You take a checkride in one of the four. Per the last part of the FSIMS above, the class ratings for aircraft not used in the checkride remain the same as they were on the old certificate.

The ONLY way I see to cover two classes would be to do the ride in an amphib and do both land and water operations. If you do a PBY-5 or G-111 type and don't do both, you are limited to what you've demonstrated. That is explained in AC 61-89.

clipperskipper

If you read the flight test standards, they are broken out into category and class. Very simply you cannot sail or dock a single engine land aircraft.

Mitragorz

Perfect, that's just what I was looking for.

That's how I was thinking it too. The two are different classes, so I wasn't sure that one ride would cover both... Unless, like you said, the ride was done in an amphib.

Thanks for looking that stuff up, though, I appreciate it.



I don't have an ATP PTS to look this stuff up in, so that's why I came to you guys. You're right, you can't sail or dock a single engine land plane. But I've already proven that I can sail and dock both single and multiengine seaplanes. I was just hoping that this guy was onto something good (and possibly often overlooked) and I could easily add that extra "ATP" to the green plastic card.

I should've known that nothing comes that easy!