Hoax

I wasn't sure where to stick this so the Part 135 seemed the best fit since that is where I want to end up.

I am going to start the beginning stages of getting my pilot license later this month and I am trying to figure out the best way to go about it.

I have found a school here in Ft. Worth at Spinks, Huffman Aviation. I am using the schools C172 to get my private then I want to buy. I have been looking at planes for some time now and figure I will spend around 50k on a plane. I want it to be something that I can use for myself but also grow into, something with 6 seats and twin piston engine's, something like a Barron or C310.

I want to get a decent plane (I know I am not going to get anything spectacular for 50k) that will be good to get time in and will be a nice long distance plane, but also be a plane that I can start a charter with. My instructor told me that the best way to get into being a commercial pilot (135) would be to go to work for a charter around here and build my reputation and skill for a couple of years while I get ready to get certified by the FAA for 135. Realistically about 5 years of training and working for some one else

I am planning on taking 3 or 4 classes a week until I get my private, then I will have to build time for my instrumentation and then my commercial. I didn't talk to him about the multi-engine but I don't think that will change my course much.

I currently own a company with family so I have the time and money to do it now, I might not later and the business were in is more unstable than the airlines (IMO)

I do not come from a family of pilots so I have no one to talk to me that will cut the BS, thats where you guys come in. Thats my plan for now, poke it full of holes and let me know what you think.

I just hope that I am not making a huge mistake and blowing tons of money. I will not be buying a plane until I get my private at least so I will still enjoy it as a hobby if nothing else.

Mike

Stratapilot

Not to sound cynical or anything...but God's sense of humor comes out when man starts to make a plan.


My advice...go with the flow. Keep a steady heading but ask ATC for a block altitude.

snippercr

I made this post a few weeks back where I have a student who is looking into aircraft ownership as well, also in the line of a C310. You might want to read it as it's how I learned how to own an aircraft (to teach a student actually!) http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fl...-airplane.html

Through helping him out, I've actually learned quite a few things about owning an aircraft... specifically, I never will - at least on a career pilot salary. However, just about anyone else makes more than a pilot so it's not THAT inconceivable.

First thing is - it costs LOTS of money to own an aircraft - specifically a light twin like the one you are looking at. This is NOT including the actual investment of the aircraft (which $50K is a MAJOR stretch, expect 100-150K for even a questionable one). I am just talking day to day and yearly expenses.

I will abbreviate some googling for you because there is too much "use search" or "google is your friend" -- and I'm a nice guy : First, you have your fixed costs. These are the costs that you have to pay no matter what, even if you aircraft just sits. They include: Insurance, Hangar/tiedown (depends on airport), Annual inspection (3-4K/year), and currency (I consider this fixed). Tiedown's I've seen from $25-150/month and hangars from 400-600/month but that was at airports outside of chicago. Further out they should be cheaper.

Then there are variable costs that depend on how much you use. Most obvious is fuel. Fuel can range from $4-6/gallon NOW, but $8+/gallon should not come as too much as a surprise in the future. A C310 you should expect 24-26 gallons/hour (12-13/engine/hour). At $5/gallon, thats 130/hour. Also there are engine and prop overhaul costs. An engine and prop needs to be "overhauled" every 1500-2000 hours of use. More or less, you are putting a new or refurbished engine. With a twin, you are putting 2 on. At ~$25,000/engine that's $50,000 every 2000 hours. Quickly divide that out, that's roughly $25/hour you should put away for each hour your run your aircraft. HOWEVER, that's assuming you get your aircraft with 0 time engines.

I've seen C310s from the 1960s around 100K, but BOTH engines were at their max Time Before Overhaul (TBO) so they had to be replaced. I have yet to find the cost of prop overhauling but I found generally put $10/hour away for prop overhauls.

Back to insurance. A wet private with no instrument is going to cost heck of a lot more than say a commercial with instrument or even an MEI. Insurance will be even more if you plan to start operating commercially. Imagine the lawsuit protection you will need should something catastrophic happen. I'll let that topic go for another day. A rough figure I saw was a CFI/MEI with instrument cost about 3-4k/year for LIABILITY ONLY - ie, the "safe auto" minimum required insurance. Your hangar goes up in flames due to a meteor, you are SOL.

Finally, and this is just a personal note from A CFI... a C310 or barron are powerful machines - especially when compared to a trainer C152 or 172. Upwards to 300 turbopowered horses per engine! C310s are NOT training aircraft. They are quite complex and move FAST. I remember my first time flying in a Seminole (multi-engine trainer) after flying in my single engine trainers. There is more or less twice as many things to do and systems to manage and things happen a LOT quicker. And the Seminole is a very underpowered aircraft - 180 horses/engine yet it still hauled ass! Single engine operations in it still made me realize I had to do some squats to get the leg power to fight a single engine climb out. Imagine 300 horses at full power with a dead engine. Or both engines working and trying to fly your 45 entry to downwind, base and final. Things happen VERY quickly.

One may go "Hey snipp, you contradicting sonuva... why were you helping your student get a C310 yet telling this bloke it's not a good idea" My student has a couple hundred hours in them from when he used to work in them and is well versed in their operation. I am not trying to form a double standard here!

Soooo...
You asked for a lot of holes to be put in your idea and you just got them (maybe not actually!). I don't mean to tell you DON'T DO IT! In fact, no where do I say that. I am trying to give you all the information I can to help. For me, as a pilot making a sub poverty level wage, the simple THOUGH of owning an aircraft is expensive. But again, it's NOT inconceivable. People DO have better jobs than pilots (like yourself maybe) and maybe able to afford this. I am just worried that you said you have the money now, and may not later.

Best of luck. I hope I answered some questions.

topprospect16

I was reading a book the other day and it said the top three things not to invest in are baseball teams, restaurants, and airlines...if you don't have any idea what your bank account will be in 5, 10, 20 years, I wouldn't think once about buying an aircraft. Get your private and save your money from there

Also, if you couldn't find the Introduction section for your first post, you may want to do some soul searching prior to writing the first check

flyingreasemnky

The real big cost would have to be unscheduled mx on any old twin. I would suggest getting your A&P because without it you will never even come close to breaking even if you want to run a commercial operation. Airplane parts are extremely expensive; mainly because they have the FAA stamp of approval (PMA or 8130). You can't just go down to the local hardware or autoparts store to get a screw (some people do anyways but its illegal). Then you have the cost of the mechanic which can run anywhere from $35/hr to over $100/hr depending on where you go. I can guarantee you that any turbocharged twin will be down for mx a lot.

A 135 operation is an expensive endeavor on its own. You will need to hire someone to help you set it up and you will need an IA to oversee your mx program. The 135 cert will require certain things be done that you don't have to do part 91. (Engine overhaul for instance isn't required for 91 but definitely is for 135.) 135's take a lot of paperwork and an in-depth understanding of the regulations. Plus, the FAA will be breathing down your neck on a regular basis.

I'm not saying its impossible to make a profit with one but don't count on it. The profit margin for any aviation related business is really small (except for the people that make the parts) but it is possible. However, one really expensive, unexpected mx cost (plan on it) could easily put you in the red.

snippercr

Ah ha. That explains why I saw a few 310s listed with "2200 Since Major Overhaul" on an engine they listed as "1700 TBO." Obviously it is not safe to go that long without an overhaul but I figured it was a part 23 thing.

To the OP, also spend some time in FAR 119 and 135 to get an idea of how such an operation works. To operate as a PIC part 135 you need 500 hours total to go VFR, 1,200 hours to go IFR (and 500 XC which can be hard to get). In addition, to get your 135 cert, you need a "Director of Operations" a "Chief Pilot" and a "Director of Maintenance." To be qualified to operate those, each needs 3 years experience. For instance, the Chief Pilot needs 3 years experience part 121 or 135. Again, crack open your FARs and read 119 and 135 (at least the first few sections).

While there are a few shortcuts for 135 (read up on single pilot or single PIC operations), getting 135 is extremely daunting. There are companies out there that make a living to help you through the paperwork.

Again, I am not trying to say "NO YOU CANT DO THAT ZOMG!" Just as a fresh student pilot these are some heads up.

Grumble

#1 You're not going to find crap for $50K in the way of a twin (or anything people will want to charter for that matter).

#2 I looked at the operating costs with my old man between a single and a twin. You're looking at 4 times the cost overall, for not much performance. Twice the systems, twice the enges, twice as much stuff to break. 2-3 times the fuel burn for a few more knots when comparing like a/c like a Bonanza to a Baron.

#3 If you really want to become poor, just burn your money. It'll be a lot less painful than trying to run a 135 operation on one airplane.

As far as a C-310 being a trainer, it absolutley is. However you're looking at serious operating and maint cost. Yeah it's fast, but speed is relative. Your brain and habit patterns will catch up. I remember climbing into the mighty T-45 thinking I'd never be able to hold on climbing out at 250+ knots. After several years in the F-18 I'm beating my head against the canopy when I'm below 10K and 280.

On another note of lookign at Cessna twins, look into the ADs. There are some expensive ones out there, a few that are recurring.

If you want something cheap to own/fly for your own amusement, look into the experimental market. You can get a nice Glasair for 50-70K that will run 200mph all day long. Or a Long-ez that'll run 170 TAS on 6 gph.

snippercr

That sounds like some sort of male enhancement on par with "ExtenZE"

9kBud

Good advice here. Don't expect to find anything close to 50k that won't need another 70k at least to get it up to snuff. If you do a good job with your mx program it is possible to get an extended TBO (9k extended the TSIO-520 TBO from 1500-1700 to 2700 for their ops). But yeah, if you want to be a millionaire in aviation, start with 2 mil.

N9373M

I stole an Excel Spreadsheet from the web that breaks down the operating costs fixed/operating based on hours flown per year. I'll email a copy if any wants - just PM me.