mshunter

What about departing in class G in IMC? Legal? I have never seen anything that sways either way. (maybe I'm not looking hard enough)

NoyGonnaDoIt

Yes, it's legal. That's what ODPs are to help with.

It's one of those where you won't find anything that specifically says it's legal (rules are usually about what's not). And really, there aren't many rules that differentiate between flight under IFR generally and flight in "IFR conditions."

But if you look through the part 91 IFR regs you'll find that some talk about "IFR in controlled airspace" and others talk simply about "IFR" or "IFR conditions" The former only apply in Class G and higher; the latter to all IFR operations.

Relevant to this thread, notice

==============================
§ 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.
No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has -
(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and
(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.
==============================

it only applies to flight in controlled airspace. In theory, IMC flight in class G with no clearance and no flight plan is legal, although there are some huge caveats about that arising from cases like FAA v. Del Balzo (http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/3935.PDF). If you read through it, notice how the NTSB threads its way from how it's generally legal under Part 91 to operate in Class G with no clearance and no flight plan to how it might be "careless and reckless" to do without a flight plan in place in certain circumstances, especially those in which the Class G op will pose a risk to Class E ops.

Phantom Flyer

Absolutely correct, once again !

I'll add one item which is important. For an operation under FAR Parts 121 or 135, there must be authorization to conduct operations in uncontrolled airspace in your OpSpecs. I know of two Part 121 Supplemental carriers who occasionally had charters to airports located in uncontrolled airspace (U.S. Govt operations). Both were allowed to operate these charters after the FAA had issued that authority through their respective OpSpecs.

FAR Part 91 is a different animal.

Stay legal and G'Luck Mates

JustAnotherPLT

Here's another one.

You're at a Class G airport. The routing to your destination keeps you in Class G. The ceilings are high enough to depart and high enough at your destination to land without an approach (it's class G, doesn't have an approach). Can you fly IMC in cruise with no flight plan?

By what everone is saying, you can fly IMC all day long as long as you stay in Class G.

joepilot

The FARs never say that you can do something, they only tell you what you cannot do.

Almost every FAR is of the form "No person shall _______, unless _____."

Such as "No person shall act as PIC unless, within the perceeding 90 days, the pilot has made three takeoffs and landings in the same category...."

The general rule is that if it is not prohibited, it is allowed. As always, look out for the "Careless and reckless" paragraph.

Joe

woodfinx

No because if you do not have a flight plan on file than you are considered to be operating under VFR. Here is what 91.155 has to say about that...

Even though you are not under positive control in Class G airspace you would still have to be operating under IFR.

NoyGonnaDoIt

That's not correct. What you quoted from 91.155 were minimums when operating under visual flight rules. There is nothing preventing one from operating under instrument flight rules in Class G without a flight plan.

Look at 91.173 (you can also look at that NTSB case I linked to) - you are only required to have a flight plan on file when operating under instrument flight rules in controlled airspace. No controlled airspace, no flight plan required, even under IFR.

The existence of non-existence of a flight plan does not make the difference between IFR and VFR.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Yes, but that's only because you haven't violated 91.155 or 91.173. Keep in mind that there's always 91.13 and in the right situation, the FAA will not hesitate to bring an enforcement action if you do something it considers dangerous to others..

Of course the number of places you can fly all day in the US in Class G without interfering with potential traffic in controlled airspace is pretty limited these days. So the discussion tends to me more academic than real.

Twin Wasp

This is sort of drifting but someone asked.

Most of Africa has an InFlight Broadcast Procedure because ATC is such a joke. So you've got ATC on one radio making normal position reports and 126.9 on another doing an air-to-air update of your progress. There's a slightly different format to the reports.

There's a short outline here.



http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/AIC'S/41-4.pdf

Photon

again NoyGonnaDoIt, you provide sound argument and some nice case material here !
Thanks , and that "chief councel" search page is a gold mine