Ewfflyer

I could say the same about Purdue.

The thing is, it all depends on the person. Some people give a crap, learn what they are supposed to, and then there are the others that are in it for kicks and have no work ethic. I guess there are an unfortunate few that try hard but honestly just don't have it, but rarely is that the case.

In the long run, he did the right thing and got a business degree on the side!!! I think that's what you should really take away from his comments.

A320fan

I'm a second year here, and here's what I've got to say about UND so far.

Pros:
-Very airline-geared training that is nothing short of world-class
-New aircraft, glass cockpits, etc
-Intense weather, makes the best experience with all types of conditions (what better way to train than where the winds gust to 30kts. Great actual IFR time too)
-A lot of opportunities to network with others in the industry, which helps LOTS when trying to get a job.

Cons:
-Lack of stick-and-rudder emphasis, overemphasis on procedures
-COLD (as in -30's, -40's, and sometimes -50's. Temps like that are not just cold, they're PAINFUL, where it literally hurts to go outside)
-Grand Forks is a very remote town, with the nearest city being over 5 hours away. And not much happens here besides hockey and binge drinking.

When you're choosing flight schools, the best advice I can give you is to talk to people who both love and hate the place, and to go tour the schools to see what kind of vibe you get when there. Like every other flight school, UND has both pros and cons. If you had any other questions about UND, or just looking for flight schools in general, please feel free to drop me a PM. Good luck with your search, buddy.

Colin

timeless

Flying in North Dakota can be very challenging. Any of the feeder freight guys up there can confirm this. If you are a UND flight student you cannot confirm this because you will never fly in even remotely questionable weather.

You will do VFR training in severe clear on fairly calm days. IFR training won't include much actual IFR time because of icing. You will fly on weekends, spring break, christmas vacation and during summer to make up cancelled lessons. The worst part is that the instructors teaching you have never flown in these conditions. My first actual IFR time as PIC didn't happen until I was teaching instrument students. This is a bad situation considering I was supposed to be the guy that knew what was going on.

Your first commercial flying job is more important than where you get your training. I learned more about flying in 3 months at my first freight job than I did at UND including the 1.5 years as a full time instructor.

Your first job is also more important for networking than where you got your training. When you are a low time pilot you are not qualified to do very much and you aren't in the running for very competitive positions. You won't need someone to walk in your resume at whipsaw regional or sh!tbox freight. Its the pilots you work with at your first job that will provide you with future connections.

I'm not a disgruntled pilot falling on hard times in a declining industry. Aviation has actually been very good to me. For the past 4 or 5 years I've had jobs that I thoroughly enjoyed with good pay. UND almost beat the enjoyment of flying out of me, but I got out before I was permanently corrupted.

Get your ratings as cheaply and quickly as possible. Letting it get drawn out can get expensive and hiring at all levels will be booming in 2012 when the age 65 guys finally have to quit.

SUMMARY: NOBODY CARES THAT YOU WENT TO UND

Good luck in aviation. The job security isn't great, but the work isn't bad.

beech1980

If i could've predicted the future i would've taken my 70k in 1998 and invested it in apple stock instead of a degree and a pilots certificate. i'd be worth 16 million!!!! ha

flyund83

I went to UND from 2004-2009 as a commercial aviation major. I had good times and bad at UND. I literally can write a book on UND and their operations. These days I hear nothing but complaining and bickering from my flight instructor buddies and people I know who are still there getting things done. Some people can make it through the program, others cant. Mostly, because of the financial aspect. UND IS a 100K + school between, tuition, room/board, flight costs (including the redoing lessons), drinking money (when you're not flying because of wind/temperature limitations). I will say this if I counted on my fingers and toes everyone I knew who came to the program for aviation and left (transferred out) I would run out of fingers and toes. That's just how UND operates.
For example, let's say you took AVIT 102 (private pilot) ground school with your flight lab, you could finish your flights and get an "A" in the ground school BUT.. if you get a 75.3% on the final (which happened to me in commercial ground school) you have to retake the WHOLE ground school over... Another semester. This is because UND operates not under part 61 rules. So there goes 2 semesters for 1 course. Other issues could be you got through ground school but you were not making satisfactory flight progress (which is decided by each instructor what is "satisfactory flight progress") then you have to redo ground school if you don't meet their date. A person could be down because of the 2 weeks of grounded flights due to winter conditions, or too windy or storms, or too cold, or just availability because of the contract students UND is teaching for Air China and Tokyo University students (yes, they DO get priority over us 'traditional' students because of their training deadlines)

All I'm saying is I saw UND when they were in their better days and now it took a turn for the worse. That's just my opinion having been to 3 different university aviation programs. I know people will argue with me from UND about this, but really... they only know about UND and not ventured outside in the real world.

I would like to say, that after leaving UND and ending up at a part 61 school I'm at now, I get to use the University aircraft (when available) for personal flying and taking trips at a HUGELY discounted rate. Can't do that at UND. So there are perks with the "not so greatest" schools.

I recommend anyone even considering UND to take a school visit (during winter) and see what they really think of it. I was a tour guide for the university and I know how much they really "fluffed" the material. I told parents when they ask me questions the truth and my opinions and got fired for it hmmm.... so yeah UND is over rated. The industry really doesn't care for UND pilots or even the networking. So save the money and consider all possible options and choices.

Can't wait to see the heated responses to my post... hehehe....

Captain Krusty

I went to UND as well. 2000-2003. Great school, great people.

I would recommend getting out of Ohio, just for the life experience. If you are planning on being a pilot you need to get used to living somewhere else many times over.

Great flight training environment. Very professional.

Not for everyone. I saw a lot of students wash-out simply because they were not good pilots. Flying is not for everyone. I am estimating that in my Private pilot course only 60-70% continued to Instrument.

Don't let the recruiter talk you into an aviation degree. Get a real degree in something else and fly on the side if you go to UND.

Rethink the whole aviation/pilot career. It is a failing industry with a lot of underpaid/overworked pilots constantly complaining about their jobs and I have no reason to believe it will get better.

Don't let flight costs justify a ridiculous amount of debt. If someone else is paying for it, go for it. If not, stay clear of debt.

bcrosier

Sorry, but to me that's the dumbest reason I've ever read for choosing a school. Go to an instate school, pay instate tuition and save the money for when you graduate - you're going to need it. That said, you Krusty is correct that you are most likely going to move a good bit as you pursue this career. I've been a notable exception, but most others I know have moved multiple times, all around the country. If you can't stomach that, then this probably isn't the career for you (noted that this was not an issue for the OP).

Where ever you go, this is an excellent suggestion. If you can manage it, a double major might be a good idea. I went to Purdue, and some of the ground school courses were excellent - I'm guessing this is the case at any good school. There are pro's and con's to doing the flight training at the school - my bottom line would be shop around and determine where provides the best value for you. I did my commercial/instrument and ME with the university. I liked the structure and organization that came with this, and I had the time blocked in my schedule for the flying, which simplified things for me. I had several friends who did their flying at a local FBO (at a local airport that is now closed). They also received good training, and probably at a lower cost. Do your homework and determine what the best options are FOR YOU.

Also excellent advice. Re-read that several times and contemplate it carefully.

WalkOfShame

flyund83, I'm not going to bicker or disagree about your post, however, I feel I have to correct some of your post so that other people read the truth.

Moral is rather low right now. Mostly because our average instructor has been working full-time now for nearly 3 years and has over 1000hrs dual given. None of us wanted to be here this long, but there aren't many places to go right now.

Correct, however this is NOT a UND rule (which is the way you make it sound), it is a FAR Part 141 rule. The same applies at any other school that operates under 141 (ERAU, Purdue (I think), etc.)

Now that just makes me mad. They DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT get aircraft priority or any other priority over other students. Yes, Air China and Tokai students have an accelerated flight training schedule but they also only take ground school (1 class), so their availability (and work ethic) is much greater than the "traditional" student. My traditional students were some of the laziest I had and then complained when they couldn't finish on time cause aircraft weren't available everyday at the "only time they could fly" or they would lose flight points. Give me a break.

I'll agree that UND is on a slippery slope right now. The student enrollment has dropped due to the economy and bad press with the airlines and there is very little movement in the industry with little opportunity of going anywhere else without taking a significant paycut (ie.- great lakes, pt. 61 instructing). Like I said above, the moral sucks. No one thought they would be at UND this long.

But to say that you know "more" cause you're outside of UND now is just arrogance. Yes, some instructors drink the cool aid. But many others have been in the real world and outside the training environment (unlike you). Many instructors have done training under part 61 (I got my private before coming to UND under pt 61), teach under pt 61 on side (again me), and were furloughed or lost their flying job and came back to UND because it was best option available to them at that point (me again). I can count on both hands and feet more "real world" experiences than you can probably count on 1 finger.

Again you speak of that which you don't know. UND has always offered aircraft to instructors at a "HUGELY discounted rate". Many times I've hopped in an Arrow or cessna and flown to DLH or FAR just to get away. And considering what I pay includes fuel, its one heck of a deal. Will I get the aircraft during the peak training time? No, but I'll be working anyway so why would I need it. I have taken an aircraft for a weekend before and it just requires some planning and coordination with different people.... really not that difficult.

I don't feel its appropriate post prices on here, so don't ask. If you would like to know, I can PM you the price list.

I completely agree with this. Go up during the winter if you can. -20 degrees F not including the wind chill isn't for everyone. Go on the tour and hear the "fluffed" material, then go back to the airport and find an experienced looking line instructor (during the school year, line instructors are the ones wearing the uniforms), and see if they have time to answer a couple questions about the flight training. They will give you an honest answer and will have more information than any of the tour guides. If someone came up to me and ask if I had time to answer a few questions, I would gladly do it. Heck, if I'm done for the day or not busy I might even give you a tour of some of the stuff they don't show you.

See now your entire post read like someone who got jilted by UND. All the misinformation, "real world experience", "HUGELY discounted rates", reads like someone who's mad that they didn't get hired as a flight instructor and felt they were entitled to it, and then your last couple sentences pretty much put it all into light for me. You have a lot to learn about the real world my friend. Your right, the industry doesn't care about UND. Networking is about who you know. You won't get a job handed to you because you went to UND, but the people met up here and the friends you made will help. You might not care about UND anymore, but the pilot sitting across from you during your interview who went to UND might. And guess what... you just lost the job.

bcrosier

It's been quite a while since I was there, but at the time, Purdue DID NOT operate under Part 141 (with the exception of the ME rating), partially because they did not care for the lack of flexibility which 141 forces on you.

I don't recall how this played out with the the written exams vs. your grade for the course. I don't recall any of my classmates having issues with it. The courses did a good job of preparing you, and let's face it - the FAA written exams are (unfortunately) sort of a joke. You learned real info you needed in class, then studied a Gleim book (or the equivalent) to pass the written. Most did so with 90% plus, so if anything it was usually a boost to your grade for the course.

WalkOfShame

Yeah I honestly wasn't sure if they do either.

I guess I should have been more specific, the FAA written exams still only require the FAA minimum of 70% and don't get applied to your grade (you just need to have it done before the final). What Flyund was talking about were the final exams in the flight courses which required a minimum of 76% to pass the class. 75% or lower and you have to retake the course, but that an FAR Part 141 rule i believe. Personally I never understood why someone wouldn't be able to get a 76%... especially if they studied.