Logging simulated instrument time
11-13-2023, 08:44 AM
#11
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,300
I'm an advanced CFI (triple rated) with a gold seal and I'm able to teach CFI courses at my flight school. Can I log "hood time" while instructing CFI students? For instance, if I wear a hood or foggles during a flight to act as an inexperienced student pilot, to test my CFI student's teaching abilities and situational awareness, can this time be logged? The FAR 14 CFR 61.51(g)(2) mentions that an authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions. Does this mean I cannot log hood time under VFR conditions, even if I’m under the hood and my CFI student acts as a safety pilot during the CFI training?
Whether you are giving instruction or not is irrelevant.
What is an "advanced CFI?"
What is "triple rated?"
11-14-2023, 09:16 AM
#12
FO
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Position: B777
Posts: 190
[QUOTE=JohnBurke;3723925]Yes, you may log the time as simulated instrument flight during the time you are wearing a view limiting device. Your log entry should cite the name of the safety pilot.
Whether you are giving instruction or not is irrelevant.
What is an "advanced CFI?"
What is "triple rated?"[/QUOTE
I recall anyone wearing a hood could log it as simulated time so long as there was an appropriately rated, current & qualified pilot, not necessarily CFI, occupying the other pilot seat & acting as a "safety pilot."
Advanced is just the AGI / Advanced ground instructor certificate. IGI-Instrument ground instructor if my memory serves me well....
HD
Whether you are giving instruction or not is irrelevant.
What is an "advanced CFI?"
What is "triple rated?"[/QUOTE
I recall anyone wearing a hood could log it as simulated time so long as there was an appropriately rated, current & qualified pilot, not necessarily CFI, occupying the other pilot seat & acting as a "safety pilot."
Advanced is just the AGI / Advanced ground instructor certificate. IGI-Instrument ground instructor if my memory serves me well....
HD
11-14-2023, 04:24 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 4,026
I never did that, simply because I didn't trust the CFI-student to see and avoid all traffic and I wanted two sets of eyes outside. I was PIC for the flight, so I felt my responsibility meant I needed to be looking outside, while playing the "instrument student". The CFI-applicant is going to make mistakes and there's a lot of learning for coordinating with ATC, simulated vectors, appropriate clearances and so on.
I think you've already pointed out that logging that time is not appropriate. It looks like under 61.51(g)(1) you *might* be able to, but you'd need to clarify this, it's not clear. It's a grey area because "safety pilot" under (3) of that section refers to meeting the recently requirements of 61.57(c), which you are obviously not doing. Also, who is the PIC during this time? I don't think you want to go down this road. But if you do, ask the FAA for a legal interpretation. It's not hard and I personally know several people who have gotten the answers back, positive ones at that.
I think you've already pointed out that logging that time is not appropriate. It looks like under 61.51(g)(1) you *might* be able to, but you'd need to clarify this, it's not clear. It's a grey area because "safety pilot" under (3) of that section refers to meeting the recently requirements of 61.57(c), which you are obviously not doing. Also, who is the PIC during this time? I don't think you want to go down this road. But if you do, ask the FAA for a legal interpretation. It's not hard and I personally know several people who have gotten the answers back, positive ones at that.
11-14-2023, 06:56 PM
#14
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,300
There is no requirement found in the regulation, nor in legal interpretation, nor in Federal Register preambles, that someone conducting simulated instrument flgiht must do so soley to meet Pilot in Command recency of experience requirements of 14 CFR 61.57(c)(1).
To maintain recency of experience, one may become "current" by several means, which range from a proficiency check to training in a simulator, to simulated instrument flight, but 61.57(c)(1) specifically speaks to recency of experience ot act as pilot in command.
One may conduct simulated instrument flight for the sake of proficiency, but one does not need to do it specifically to be instrument current.
14 CFR 91.109(c) stipulates the requirement to conduct simulated instrument flight; nowhere is found a requirement that simulated instrument flight be conducted only for the purposes of PIC proficiency under 61.57(c)(1).
Can a CFI provide instructing while training a CFI applicant, by playing the student? Of coruse. Can the CFI provide that isntruction while under the hood, and log it? Of course. However, as JamesNoBrakes notes, and I have to agree, it may not be the best way to go about providing that instruction. Not only does this eliminate the ability of the CFI (CFII) to have situational awareness of traffic (etc), but there's no reason that the CFII can't do the same thing with the hood off, and simulate errors or teaching moments.
That said, under the regulation, so long as the stipulation of 91.109(c) are met, then simulated instrument flight may be conducted, and the person manipulating the controls by reference to instruments may log instrument time in simulated instrument flight.
To maintain recency of experience, one may become "current" by several means, which range from a proficiency check to training in a simulator, to simulated instrument flight, but 61.57(c)(1) specifically speaks to recency of experience ot act as pilot in command.
One may conduct simulated instrument flight for the sake of proficiency, but one does not need to do it specifically to be instrument current.
14 CFR 91.109(c) stipulates the requirement to conduct simulated instrument flight; nowhere is found a requirement that simulated instrument flight be conducted only for the purposes of PIC proficiency under 61.57(c)(1).
Can a CFI provide instructing while training a CFI applicant, by playing the student? Of coruse. Can the CFI provide that isntruction while under the hood, and log it? Of course. However, as JamesNoBrakes notes, and I have to agree, it may not be the best way to go about providing that instruction. Not only does this eliminate the ability of the CFI (CFII) to have situational awareness of traffic (etc), but there's no reason that the CFII can't do the same thing with the hood off, and simulate errors or teaching moments.
That said, under the regulation, so long as the stipulation of 91.109(c) are met, then simulated instrument flight may be conducted, and the person manipulating the controls by reference to instruments may log instrument time in simulated instrument flight.
11-14-2023, 07:50 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 4,026
There is no requirement found in the regulation, nor in legal interpretation, nor in Federal Register preambles, that someone conducting simulated instrument flgiht must do so soley to meet Pilot in Command recency of experience requirements of 14 CFR 61.57(c)(1).
To maintain recency of experience, one may become "current" by several means, which range from a proficiency check to training in a simulator, to simulated instrument flight, but 61.57(c)(1) specifically speaks to recency of experience ot act as pilot in command.
One may conduct simulated instrument flight for the sake of proficiency, but one does not need to do it specifically to be instrument current.
14 CFR 91.109(c) stipulates the requirement to conduct simulated instrument flight; nowhere is found a requirement that simulated instrument flight be conducted only for the purposes of PIC proficiency under 61.57(c)(1).
Can a CFI provide instructing while training a CFI applicant, by playing the student? Of coruse. Can the CFI provide that isntruction while under the hood, and log it? Of course. However, as JamesNoBrakes notes, and I have to agree, it may not be the best way to go about providing that instruction. Not only does this eliminate the ability of the CFI (CFII) to have situational awareness of traffic (etc), but there's no reason that the CFII can't do the same thing with the hood off, and simulate errors or teaching moments.
That said, under the regulation, so long as the stipulation of 91.109(c) are met, then simulated instrument flight may be conducted, and the person manipulating the controls by reference to instruments may log instrument time in simulated instrument flight.
To maintain recency of experience, one may become "current" by several means, which range from a proficiency check to training in a simulator, to simulated instrument flight, but 61.57(c)(1) specifically speaks to recency of experience ot act as pilot in command.
One may conduct simulated instrument flight for the sake of proficiency, but one does not need to do it specifically to be instrument current.
14 CFR 91.109(c) stipulates the requirement to conduct simulated instrument flight; nowhere is found a requirement that simulated instrument flight be conducted only for the purposes of PIC proficiency under 61.57(c)(1).
Can a CFI provide instructing while training a CFI applicant, by playing the student? Of coruse. Can the CFI provide that isntruction while under the hood, and log it? Of course. However, as JamesNoBrakes notes, and I have to agree, it may not be the best way to go about providing that instruction. Not only does this eliminate the ability of the CFI (CFII) to have situational awareness of traffic (etc), but there's no reason that the CFII can't do the same thing with the hood off, and simulate errors or teaching moments.
That said, under the regulation, so long as the stipulation of 91.109(c) are met, then simulated instrument flight may be conducted, and the person manipulating the controls by reference to instruments may log instrument time in simulated instrument flight.
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