ATP Seminole Crash
12-09-2008, 08:09 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 926
I've seen post after post on this thread talking about the need for radio calls or a standard radio procedure.
You DO NOT look for traffic with your radio.
I've seen suggestions for everything under the sun so far, but I have noticed a disturbing trend that most people seem to think that a lookout is secondary....as evidenced by the above quoted post.
All of the radio calls and procedures in the world would not have prevented this midair. ONE thing would have....proper lookout.
You MUST LOOK OUT THE WINDOW. I've been working in practice areas for three years now and I've flown with hundreds of students and have nearly 3500 hours of dual given.....and I am sick and tired of hearing instructors who seem to think that it is their job to go out into the practice area and make radio calls and position reports every 30 seconds. First of all, it gives them and their student a false sense of security thinking that a position report somehow relieves them of their duty to maintain a proper lookout. Second, it makes the radio an annoyance....so much that people have a tendency to tune it out and miss a position report that might actually be pertinent.
I get so annoyed when I hear an instructor get on the radio and say "Cessna near (wherever) and 4,500 feet, are you on frequency?" Then when there is no response, they'll get on the radio and "warn" everyone else in the practice area that an airplane is transiting the practice area, not making radio calls and nearly hit them, acting as if THEY somehow were in the right because THEY were making position reports.
Bull$#it......THEY were obviously surprised by this "evil" "norad" aircraft because THEY were not maintaining an adequate lookout.
The aircraft transiting the area without making position reports was doing nothing wrong....the instructor was the one not doing his/her duty.
The radio is not a substitute for an adequate lookout. Again, DO NOT teach your student to look for traffic with your radio. Use the radio SPARINGLY as an aid, but do not neglect your lookout.
Look out of your windows like your life depends on it....because it does.
12-09-2008, 08:23 AM
#32
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,059
I can't hold my tongue any longer.
I've seen post after post on this thread talking about the need for radio calls or a standard radio procedure.
You DO NOT look for traffic with your radio.
I've seen suggestions for everything under the sun so far, but I have noticed a disturbing trend that most people seem to think that a lookout is secondary....as evidenced by the above quoted post.
All of the radio calls and procedures in the world would not have prevented this midair. ONE thing would have....proper lookout.
You MUST LOOK OUT THE WINDOW. I've been working in practice areas for three years now and I've flown with hundreds of students and have nearly 3500 hours of dual given.....and I am sick and tired of hearing instructors who seem to think that it is their job to go out into the practice area and make radio calls and position reports every 30 seconds. First of all, it gives them and their student a false sense of security thinking that a position report somehow relieves them of their duty to maintain a proper lookout. Second, it makes the radio an annoyance....so much that people have a tendency to tune it out and miss a position report that might actually be pertinent.
I get so annoyed when I hear an instructor get on the radio and say "Cessna near (wherever) and 4,500 feet, are you on frequency?" Then when there is no response, they'll get on the radio and "warn" everyone else in the practice area that an airplane is transiting the practice area, not making radio calls and nearly hit them, acting as if THEY somehow were in the right because THEY were making position reports.
Bull$#it......THEY were obviously surprised by this "evil" "norad" aircraft because THEY were not maintaining an adequate lookout.
The aircraft transiting the area without making position reports was doing nothing wrong....the instructor was the one not doing his/her duty.
The radio is not a substitute for an adequate lookout. Again, DO NOT teach your student to look for traffic with your radio. Use the radio SPARINGLY as an aid, but do not neglect your lookout.
Look out of your windows like your life depends on it....because it does.
I've seen post after post on this thread talking about the need for radio calls or a standard radio procedure.
You DO NOT look for traffic with your radio.
I've seen suggestions for everything under the sun so far, but I have noticed a disturbing trend that most people seem to think that a lookout is secondary....as evidenced by the above quoted post.
All of the radio calls and procedures in the world would not have prevented this midair. ONE thing would have....proper lookout.
You MUST LOOK OUT THE WINDOW. I've been working in practice areas for three years now and I've flown with hundreds of students and have nearly 3500 hours of dual given.....and I am sick and tired of hearing instructors who seem to think that it is their job to go out into the practice area and make radio calls and position reports every 30 seconds. First of all, it gives them and their student a false sense of security thinking that a position report somehow relieves them of their duty to maintain a proper lookout. Second, it makes the radio an annoyance....so much that people have a tendency to tune it out and miss a position report that might actually be pertinent.
I get so annoyed when I hear an instructor get on the radio and say "Cessna near (wherever) and 4,500 feet, are you on frequency?" Then when there is no response, they'll get on the radio and "warn" everyone else in the practice area that an airplane is transiting the practice area, not making radio calls and nearly hit them, acting as if THEY somehow were in the right because THEY were making position reports.
Bull$#it......THEY were obviously surprised by this "evil" "norad" aircraft because THEY were not maintaining an adequate lookout.
The aircraft transiting the area without making position reports was doing nothing wrong....the instructor was the one not doing his/her duty.
The radio is not a substitute for an adequate lookout. Again, DO NOT teach your student to look for traffic with your radio. Use the radio SPARINGLY as an aid, but do not neglect your lookout.
Look out of your windows like your life depends on it....because it does.
The reality is that due to cockpit construction, environmental factors, and human physiology even the best visual lookout is very far from 100% protective.
If the visual lookout were foolproof, airliners wouldn't have TCAS...but even two experienced professional crewmembers cannot maintain a perfect lookout, especially in the arrival phase.
The best protection is a layered defense...use all of your available anti-collision resources: lights, radio, visual lookout, CRM, TCAS, and common sense. Even all of that is not foolproof. The reason the pilot always gets the blame for a midair is because the FAA is a government agency and operates under the assumption that it can do no wrong, and it's rules are foolproof...it must ALWAYS shift the blame, careers and pensions hang in the balance!
If you want foolproof collision protection, stay on the ground.
12-09-2008, 08:39 AM
#33
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
Layered defense, yes.
How many times have we been told to "follow that traffic" and we couldn't spot that traffic even knowing an approximate position for it? It is very hard to see a large aircraft, let alone a trainer when conditions aren't favorable. More than a couple of miles and they become extremely small targets. You need to know they are there first by radio/ TIS/ TCAS/ ADS-B so you can scan with some hope of seeing them.
How many times have we been told to "follow that traffic" and we couldn't spot that traffic even knowing an approximate position for it? It is very hard to see a large aircraft, let alone a trainer when conditions aren't favorable. More than a couple of miles and they become extremely small targets. You need to know they are there first by radio/ TIS/ TCAS/ ADS-B so you can scan with some hope of seeing them.
12-09-2008, 08:53 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
I've seen post after post on this thread talking about the need for radio calls or a standard radio procedure.
You DO NOT look for traffic with your radio.
You DO NOT look for traffic with your radio.
I've seen suggestions for everything under the sun so far, but I have noticed a disturbing trend that most people seem to think that a lookout is secondary....as evidenced by the above quoted post.
All of the radio calls and procedures in the world would not have prevented this midair. ONE thing would have....proper lookout.
You MUST LOOK OUT THE WINDOW. I've been working in practice areas for three years now and I've flown with hundreds of students and have nearly 3500 hours of dual given.....and I am sick and tired of hearing instructors who seem to think that it is their job to go out into the practice area and make radio calls and position reports every 30 seconds.
USMCFLYR
12-09-2008, 08:56 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 926
This is overboard.
The reality is that due to cockpit construction, environmental factors, and human physiology even the best visual lookout is very far from 100% protective.
If the visual lookout were foolproof, airliners wouldn't have TCAS...but even two experienced professional crewmembers cannot maintain a perfect lookout, especially in the arrival phase.
The best protection is a layered defense...use all of your available anti-collision resources: lights, radio, visual lookout, CRM, TCAS, and common sense. Even all of that is not foolproof. The reason the pilot always gets the blame for a midair is because the FAA is a government agency and operates under the assumption that it can do no wrong, and it's rules are foolproof...it must ALWAYS shift the blame, careers and pensions hang in the balance!
If you want foolproof collision protection, stay on the ground.
The reality is that due to cockpit construction, environmental factors, and human physiology even the best visual lookout is very far from 100% protective.
If the visual lookout were foolproof, airliners wouldn't have TCAS...but even two experienced professional crewmembers cannot maintain a perfect lookout, especially in the arrival phase.
The best protection is a layered defense...use all of your available anti-collision resources: lights, radio, visual lookout, CRM, TCAS, and common sense. Even all of that is not foolproof. The reason the pilot always gets the blame for a midair is because the FAA is a government agency and operates under the assumption that it can do no wrong, and it's rules are foolproof...it must ALWAYS shift the blame, careers and pensions hang in the balance!
If you want foolproof collision protection, stay on the ground.
Lookout is the most important and effective means of collision avoidance.
TCAS? We're talking about a 120 knot Cessna and a 150 knot Seminole....not a couple of jets.
The statement above was made "keep your eyes out the window and above all communicate." ...or something like that.
What should have been said was "communicate and above all else keep you eyes out the window.."
In aircraft of this size, you can get my without TCAS, radar advisories or even a radio if you're just taking the time to maintain a proper lookout.
But you cannot substitute a proper lookout for one or all of the others.
Again, I've noticed a disturbing trend amongst instructors who tend to rely on the radio far too heavily (or even completely) for collision avoidance. This tendency is being passed on to students.....and it needs to change.
You need to look out the window like your life depends on it....because it does.
12-09-2008, 09:01 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 926
I'll respectfully disagree. ABSOLUTELY "look for traffic" with your radio. It certainly extends my SA beyond my eyeball range. While I'm at it - I'll use my radar and IFF interrgator also. If you are rlying solely on your eyeballs then you are not using every tool in the bag.
I haven't seen any post suggest that you shouldn't look outside. matter of fact - almost every post has ended with some form of "keep your eyes open". Communication is VERY important!
I don't know the specifics of the mishap so I can not make such a statement. What I do know is that communication has prevented MANY possible midairs in my own experience. A recent on involved my wingman and I practicing low altitude maneuvers in a punch bowl valley when a pair of Spanish Harriers check in. because they were up the required low altitude comon freq and because they were smart enough to make the position call upon entering the same valley - I quickly coordinated with them, they got eyes on me and stayed out of my way until I finished my last two maneuvers then departed. This was much perferred than two separate sections operating in the same valley without knowledge of each other and finding each other solely by looking outside for a small airplane headon closing on each other at over 1000 mph.
I agree - absolutely teach to look outside, but if you are seriously teaching NOT to use the radio as a resource then I have to disagree with you.
USMCFLYR
I haven't seen any post suggest that you shouldn't look outside. matter of fact - almost every post has ended with some form of "keep your eyes open". Communication is VERY important!
I don't know the specifics of the mishap so I can not make such a statement. What I do know is that communication has prevented MANY possible midairs in my own experience. A recent on involved my wingman and I practicing low altitude maneuvers in a punch bowl valley when a pair of Spanish Harriers check in. because they were up the required low altitude comon freq and because they were smart enough to make the position call upon entering the same valley - I quickly coordinated with them, they got eyes on me and stayed out of my way until I finished my last two maneuvers then departed. This was much perferred than two separate sections operating in the same valley without knowledge of each other and finding each other solely by looking outside for a small airplane headon closing on each other at over 1000 mph.
I agree - absolutely teach to look outside, but if you are seriously teaching NOT to use the radio as a resource then I have to disagree with you.
USMCFLYR
I never said said not to use the radio....my point is that the radio is too heavily relied apon to "spot" traffic.
...and I don't care what you say, you can NOT see traffic with your radio. What about a bad position report? You've never flown with a student or a pilot that reported that they were somewhere when they were, in fact, in a totally different place? You've never been with a student that reported being at a different altitude than he/she actually was?
Look out the window first....everything else is secondary.
Look out the window like your life depends on it.....because it does.
12-09-2008, 09:13 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
[QUOTE]
And maybe you are not understanding what everyone is saying. Matter of fact - your pointing out that one sentence could have just been semantics since all you wanted to do was change the order of the wording.
You keep talking about RELYING. No one is saying to RELY on anything - not the radios and not your eyeballs. USE everything - your radios and your eyeballs.
Can - you can. You build that SA picture in your head and you can visualize the airspace. I can see it. Have I been the victim of a bad position report? OH HECK YES! Nearly had a midair with a flight of 4 T-45s over the initial at El Centro quite a few months back because of a bad position call. that is one reason that ialways make it a point to debrief bad position reports to my students and I use my own experience to graphically illustrate the point.
Btw - using the radio doesn't just work for the fast movers in restricted areas. Usually the training areas that the military uses has a common freq or the squadrons operating there have some system in place. It is taught to us from day one - even in T-34s. We use physical features, TCN radial cuts (and probably GPS now) and common frequencies to enhance our SA. and guess what - it still doesn't always work. I'll use my eyeballs at another layer of defense - and possibly the LAST line of defense, but I will certainly not limit myself.
USMCFLYR
Listen, I didn't say half of things that you since to think that I'm implying....we're talking about practice area aircraft here....using the radio DOES NOT extend your lookout AT ALL. It would only do so if ALL aircraft in the practice area are participating on the designated frequency...and that is never the case, save for possibly your type of operations in restricted areas.
I never said said not to use the radio....my point is that the radio is too heavily relied apon to "spot" traffic.
...and I don't care what you say, you can NOT see traffic with your radio. What about a bad position report? You've never flown with a student or a pilot that reported that they were somewhere when they were, in fact, in a totally different place? You've never been with a student that reported being at a different altitude than he/she actually was?
Btw - using the radio doesn't just work for the fast movers in restricted areas. Usually the training areas that the military uses has a common freq or the squadrons operating there have some system in place. It is taught to us from day one - even in T-34s. We use physical features, TCN radial cuts (and probably GPS now) and common frequencies to enhance our SA. and guess what - it still doesn't always work. I'll use my eyeballs at another layer of defense - and possibly the LAST line of defense, but I will certainly not limit myself.
USMCFLYR
12-09-2008, 09:30 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 926
Of course I know that no one is saying to rely on the radios. I'm saying that it is happening. Instructors are doing it...as evidenced by the types of calls being made as I outlined in an earlier post....and their students (monkey see, monkey do) are taking it to a new level.
I'm not just changing the order of the sentence, i'm drastically changing the meaning.....you must use your eyes to look for traffic, not the radio...the radio, of course, adds to one's overall situational awareness. But you cannot, nor should you attempt to, "see" traffic with your radio.
I think that we're in almost total agreement here. You (may) seem to think that I'm going overboard in demonstrating the need for a visual lookout above all else, but I don't think that I can really stress it enough...particularly to low-time flyers.
Look out the window like you life depends on it, because it does.
I'd also like to note that I'm not assuming that I know what happened in this incident, nor that I wouldn't or couldn't have been one of those folks involved, but my hyper-sensitivity for a proper lookout (instilled in me by my CFI DPE who last a husband to a midair) has saved my butt more than once in situations in which all of the position reports in the world would have not.
I'm not just changing the order of the sentence, i'm drastically changing the meaning.....you must use your eyes to look for traffic, not the radio...the radio, of course, adds to one's overall situational awareness. But you cannot, nor should you attempt to, "see" traffic with your radio.
I think that we're in almost total agreement here. You (may) seem to think that I'm going overboard in demonstrating the need for a visual lookout above all else, but I don't think that I can really stress it enough...particularly to low-time flyers.
Look out the window like you life depends on it, because it does.
I'd also like to note that I'm not assuming that I know what happened in this incident, nor that I wouldn't or couldn't have been one of those folks involved, but my hyper-sensitivity for a proper lookout (instilled in me by my CFI DPE who last a husband to a midair) has saved my butt more than once in situations in which all of the position reports in the world would have not.
12-09-2008, 10:45 AM
#39
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 65
USMCFLYR,
I can't agree with you more. I was once a Flight Safety Instructor for the Swiss Air Program many years ago, and I found through my experiences with students from all over the world in airspace as congested as Florida's coast, that you need every available tool to maintain situational awareness from other traffic. I also tried to pick and choose curtain times of the day or night, depending on the mission, that would enhance safety and the successful completion of each lesson. I always preferred (if that was available) to instruct at night for many different reasons:
1.) It is much easier to spot traffic at night
2.) The airspace and practice areas is not nearly as congested as the peak hours during the day for practicing maneuvers IFR or VFR.
3.) ATC is much more willing to work with you and your student.
4.) It forces the student to be aware of their surroundings and maintain situational awareness.
And if the evening slots were not available or if the lesson required day time instruction, then I scheduled as early in the morning as allowable. As my career advanced to turbo props, then on to jets, those basic rules that I learned from other instructors way back then when I was a new IP, still applies, even on larger and faster aircraft.
This worked out very well for me.
I appreciate the post and your advice for younger IP's.
I didn't realize you were an IP on a Hornet. I'm sure you have many, many interesting stories to tell.
D.
I can't agree with you more. I was once a Flight Safety Instructor for the Swiss Air Program many years ago, and I found through my experiences with students from all over the world in airspace as congested as Florida's coast, that you need every available tool to maintain situational awareness from other traffic. I also tried to pick and choose curtain times of the day or night, depending on the mission, that would enhance safety and the successful completion of each lesson. I always preferred (if that was available) to instruct at night for many different reasons:
1.) It is much easier to spot traffic at night
2.) The airspace and practice areas is not nearly as congested as the peak hours during the day for practicing maneuvers IFR or VFR.
3.) ATC is much more willing to work with you and your student.
4.) It forces the student to be aware of their surroundings and maintain situational awareness.
And if the evening slots were not available or if the lesson required day time instruction, then I scheduled as early in the morning as allowable. As my career advanced to turbo props, then on to jets, those basic rules that I learned from other instructors way back then when I was a new IP, still applies, even on larger and faster aircraft.
This worked out very well for me.
I appreciate the post and your advice for younger IP's.
I didn't realize you were an IP on a Hornet. I'm sure you have many, many interesting stories to tell.
D.
12-09-2008, 05:24 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
USMCFLYR,
I can't agree with you more. I was once a Flight Safety Instructor for the Swiss Air Program many years ago, and I found through my experiences with students from all over the world in airspace as congested as Florida's coast, that you need every available tool to maintain situational awareness from other traffic. I also tried to pick and choose curtain times of the day or night, depending on the mission, that would enhance safety and the successful completion of each lesson. I always preferred (if that was available) to instruct at night for many different reasons:
1.) It is much easier to spot traffic at night
2.) The airspace and practice areas is not nearly as congested as the peak hours during the day for practicing maneuvers IFR or VFR.
3.) ATC is much more willing to work with you and your student.
4.) It forces the student to be aware of their surroundings and maintain situational awareness.
And if the evening slots were not available or if the lesson required day time instruction, then I scheduled as early in the morning as allowable. As my career advanced to turbo props, then on to jets, those basic rules that I learned from other instructors way back then when I was a new IP, still applies, even on larger and faster aircraft.
This worked out very well for me.
I appreciate the post and your advice for younger IP's.
I didn't realize you were an IP on a Hornet. I'm sure you have many, many interesting stories to tell.
D.
I can't agree with you more. I was once a Flight Safety Instructor for the Swiss Air Program many years ago, and I found through my experiences with students from all over the world in airspace as congested as Florida's coast, that you need every available tool to maintain situational awareness from other traffic. I also tried to pick and choose curtain times of the day or night, depending on the mission, that would enhance safety and the successful completion of each lesson. I always preferred (if that was available) to instruct at night for many different reasons:
1.) It is much easier to spot traffic at night
2.) The airspace and practice areas is not nearly as congested as the peak hours during the day for practicing maneuvers IFR or VFR.
3.) ATC is much more willing to work with you and your student.
4.) It forces the student to be aware of their surroundings and maintain situational awareness.
And if the evening slots were not available or if the lesson required day time instruction, then I scheduled as early in the morning as allowable. As my career advanced to turbo props, then on to jets, those basic rules that I learned from other instructors way back then when I was a new IP, still applies, even on larger and faster aircraft.
This worked out very well for me.
I appreciate the post and your advice for younger IP's.
I didn't realize you were an IP on a Hornet. I'm sure you have many, many interesting stories to tell.
D.
Sqwkvfr - I had an incident just a few hours ago where my eyeballs kept me separated from traffic. The radios were jammed with comm traffic, Joshua control was overwhelmed, my lead was directing some tactical formation maneuvering while setting us up for the next engagement, the radar was looking either up at the moon or down in the dirt, and I was talking to the student on ICS. A very busy time. This time it was that last layer of defense - my eyeballs that eventually picked out the traffic and called it out (communicated) to my lead. Just one of the tools. We are agreeing in the end. You make it sound like using the radio is relying on the radio. If this is not what you are saying then we agree. I don't thin you are going overboard with the see-n-avoid, I think you are not giving other forms of additional SA their due course.
I'll even give you a drastic example where looking outside (but not commmunicating) can lead to disaster. My squadorn's last Class A mishap resulted from a student hitting an instructor. he was visual coming through the merge and then lost sight at some point. He was looking outside trying to find his lead - but what he didn't do was follow the training rules and make that 'blind' call that he should have (lack of communication). If he had communicated - the lead would have deconflicted in heading, airspeed, and altitude and looked bacl over his shoulder and directed the student's eyes onto him. The result with that simple, single syllabel word having been timely communicated would have been the saving of two Hornets and the student's life.
USMCFLYR
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