pilotinsky

Can CFII log instrument app when fly with students?

250 or point 65

61.51

(i stand corrected)

Rawhide16

61.51 doesn't specifically mention approaches. All it says is that CFII's may log instrument time while instructing.

My interpretation of 61.57 is that you may not log the approaches unless you actually fly them.

(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—
(i) At least six instrument approaches;
(ii) Holding procedures; and
(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.

Performed being the key word.

250 or point 65

it doesn't say who performed them.

what 61.51 says is that an instructor may log instrument time while instructing in IMC. Any approach shot in IMC is an instrument approach. If an approach is performed in IMC, my interpretation is that it may be logged.

the CFII is in charge of assuring the instrument approach goes smoothly...if the autopilot "performs" an instrument approach for me, can I not log it?

Rawhide16

Sure it does:

(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—
(i) At least six instrument approaches;
(ii) Holding procedures; and
(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.

You have a point about the autopilot. I'll have to look into that.

250 or point 65

ok, i see where you're getting that, for currency.

however, i dont think that means i cant log an instrument approach flown by my student in IMC.

This is a good question, and actually, i'm gonna spin one off that i dont know.

Do both pilots in an aircraft that requires 2 log instrument time in IMC? Cause I don't log approaches my captain perfoms...this could be similar?

rickair7777

A CFII is the PIC (usually) and can log conditions of flight, including IMC. He can't log approaches or landings, and probably should not log holds and intercepting/tracking either...especially if he needs it for currency.

In a two pilot airplane, both pilots log conditions of flight: Day, night, XC. You can probably log IMC (not approaches) as a PNF SIC, but I do not.

However only the pilot flying should log those task which require sole manipulation of controls: Landings and approaches.

Some people debate whether an ATP can log certain things when he is PNF, but the safest thing to do is avoid regulatory grey areas...the guy who reviews your logbook at an interview may not share your personal opinion on grey areas. You could maybe argue it in court with the FAA, but an employer will likely not give you the opportunity to explain...just a "No Thanks" letter.

floridaCFII

Notice that the phrase "sole manipulator" in 61.57 applies only to landings. That phrase is not used in reference to approaches.

rickair7777

I think it is somewhere else in the FARs? I'll look when I get home.

bradeku1008

[quote=rickair7777;473813]A CFII is the PIC (usually) and can log conditions of flight, including IMC. He can't log approaches or landings, and probably should not log holds and intercepting/tracking either...especially if he needs it for currency.


However only the pilot flying should log those task which require sole manipulation of controls: Landings and approaches.quote]

A Flight Instructor can log instruemnt approaches with a student but only if the approaches are in IMC. The Flight Instructor can log PIC while giving instruction in simulated conditions becasue he is a required crew member. He or she can always log PIC, landings, and conditions while giving duel.