atpwannabe

So let me see if I got this straight; Part 61 is primarily a study at your own pace type deal; whereas Part 141 is more structured and you follow an outline/syllabus and you have a time frame? Correct?

Also, in terms of doing an IFR X-country flight is that cut & dry as snippercr put it? I was under the impression that a 141 school is one that mirrors airline ops more so than 61.


atp

freezingflyboy

Part 61 has as much or as little structure as you want. What I mean by that is all you have to do to complete a certificate going the part 61 route is meet the flight time requirements and demonstrate mastery of the maneuvers and aeronautical knowledge areas listed in the PTS (practical test standards) and 14 CFR part 61 (the FARs). Now how you go about attaining that knowledge and skill is left up to you and the instructor. Some people do the at-home study courses like you can get from King or Jeppessen or a number of other sources. Usually cost a couple hundred bucks and involve lots of reading and video watching.

In a part 141 environment there is usually a structured ground instruction course you must attend with minimum class time requirements and test scores that you must meet. I went through my training part 141 in a college setting so of course the classes were just normal college classes. I get the impression that most 141 courses are set up the same way regardless of where you attend them but I don't know for sure.

I think snippercr sensationalized a little bit. At the 141 program I went through (UND) the process was similar but really was not as cumbersome as snipper would make it sound. You did your planning, usually the night before depending on when your launch time was. Met with your instructor to discuss the weather and to go over your planning and correct any deficiencies. Your instructor would then sign your dispatch slip (telling the "supervisor of flying" or "duty pilot" that the planning has been checked and is good to go) and endorse your logbook if need be. Then you would carry it over to the supervisor of flying (SOF) and they would check to make sure everything was in order and that your flight was timed with other students going to the same airports (can you imagine 5 student pilots all in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport at the same time...yeesh!). The slip then goes to dispatch (in our case, literally handed to the next person at the desk) who assigns you an airplane or you wait until an airplane arrives if the operation is getting backed up.

The thing is, you do almost the same process every day you fly so its really not a lot to be thrown into. The only real differences are you don't do route planning for a local flight and you just fill out a different dispatch slip. Simple. I guess in a way the process mirrors the airline environment in that someone is always looking over your shoulder.

At the part 61 program I instructed at and did my private at, the process was much simpler. You'd show up for your lesson. If it was a solo lesson then you'd meet with your instructor to discuss planning or the flight or whatever needed to be discussed. When you were ready to head out to the plane, the girl at the desk would give you the binder (containing the keys, credit cards, the "oh crap, I'm in the weeds" checklist, etc.) for the plane and you'd head out to go fly. More or less the same process just less "watching over your shoulder".

de727ups

Part 61 can be just as structured as 141 if you'd like to make it so. With Part 141, the structure is forced, which I don't believe is a good thing. Sometimes structure is good and sometimes it's nice to have the freedom to sway from structure. Part 61 does that.

atpwannabe

Ok...so let me ask both of you guys this:

IYHO, in terms of terms of attaining the CPL w/ME at 190 hrs vs. 250, what's your personal take on this? Both seem to have you at the same point in terms of proficiency; it just seems like if "they" can't get you in terms of $, then "they" will get you in terms of time. Both of which I'm looking to minimize.


atp

ps - heading down to FLL to p/u mom & sis. they're flying in from LAS.

freezingflyboy

I don't think one has an advantage over the other in terms of amount of flight time. You're more than likely going to be buying that time (the difference between 190 and 250) anyway in the process of time building (taking friends and family up, chasing that $600 burger or pancake breakfast, etc). If you want to get right down to the numbers of it, I don't think there is a significant cost advantage of one over the other (190 more expensive hours vs. 250 cheaper hours). Of course that will vary depending on what programs you are comparing. You also have to budget for the inevitable overages (almost NOBODY gets through at the bare minimum. Has to do with the fact that we're all human). In a part 61 program you are also going to have to schedule and pay for each checkride with a DE (Designated Examiner) at about $250-$400 a pop (maybe I should go be a DE...hmmm). At a 141 program, the checkrides are usually administered by instructors at the school and all you pay is the normal instructor rate. So at a part 61 school, by the time its all said and done, you've probably plunked down an additional $1000-1200 just in examiner fees (PPL, Inst, Comm., Multi.). If you continue on to CFI, CFII and MEI those are the more expensive checkrides so add another $1000 or so for those. Thats on top of your books, supplies, airplane, and instructor costs.

The differences between the two are more in pace, structure and depth. I think if you are hell bent on professional aviation then 141 is a good route to go. It gets you used to the structure and sitting in classes and constantly having to perform to a certain standard. In short, a more "airline-like" environment. Part 61 gives you more flexibility to tailor training and to speed through training at your own pace but that is dependent on your ability to self-motivate and keep up with the workload on your own as well as your instructor and your school's ability to provide time and an airplane. If you are the kind of person (I'm not) that can sit with your nose in the books for hours and watch incredibly dull videos staring the hot and sexy Martha King and her infamous "Helmet Perm" then keeping a breakneck pace with part 61 training might be a good option for you. If you are the kind of person who prefers some structure as well as a little more depth to your training then I think part 141 is better option.

USMCFLYR

"Here, in order to do IFR Xcountry, not only are you limited to select locations but the PROCESS to actually get wheels up is crazy! First you have to plan the route which is straight forward. You then need to get it review and checked by your instructor. They then have to sign your institute logbook authorizing that flight. Then you have to show up day/night of flight to get your weather mins signed off by the duty pilot who "Supervises" you. Then you need to get signed off by dispatch. Oh did I mention weather minimums? Day time the weather mins are 2000 feet ceilings and 3 mile visibility and night is 3000 feet ceilings and 5 miles visibility. Plus if there are thunderstorms in the area forecast you are not allowed to go. Even if the storms are in southern state, moving south and you are in northern state going north."

Sounds military like. Like I said in another post, I did much better under 141 instruction than I did under 61 instruction - but I agree that it is more about the CFI/School than it is about whether it is part 61 or 141.

USMCFLYR

freezingflyboy

I'm sure that wasn't an accident. When I was at UND our Director of Flight Ops was a colonel in the ANG (now a 1 star if I remember).

de727ups

In the 190 vs 250 argument, with respect to money spent, I like to point out the 50 of the 250 could be instruction in a FAA approved ground trainer under part 61. Also, the 50 hours of solo X-C time required under part 61, while being expensive, is a great way to build self confidence and experience as a pilot.

WhiteH2O

I didn't see anyone say this yet, although I may have missed it.

In part 141, there are fairly strict weather minimums especially for solo and solo xc flights at most 141 schools. This could easily mean that you won't be flying when the weather is fairly good, and you could be flying if you were training part 61. Depending on where you are doing your training, it could mean that your training could take a lot longer.

emsgoof

The school I did my private and instrument at is a 61/141 school. The only difference the programs had was the amount of paperwork for the instructors and chief instructor to fill out if you went the 141 route. You still followed the same syllabus, although the part 61 allows the freedom to "deviate as necessary". The only restrictions on flying at the school (other than aircraft limitations) were CAVOK and winds under 10 kts for student solo. Once you had your private, they didn't care what the weather was for soloing (regarding commercial cross country flights, since you're always stuck with an instructor for instrument). Their theory was "you break it, you buy it" (after doing aircraft checkouts, etc).