skyrice

Greetings. I've spent an extensive amount of time reading the different threads in these forums, but I'm still not clear on several things. I know this post is going to be like dropping a bomb on the forum, so forgive me.

First some introduction: I'm a 22 year old, holding an A.S. degree in Math and Science (3.75 GPA), and working as a Unix support technician at GE Global Research. My salary is 40k. I really don't find my job fulfilling, in fact it's quite boring and mundane, but it pays. I have about 30 hours of flight instruction; I started when I was 13 and had to stop a few years later due to my parent's financial situation. My girlfriend recently bought me a flight lesson at Richmor Aviation in Schenectady, NY, and it sparked that interest back up. I've always wanted to be an airline pilot, flying the big jets.

Now to the questions. I love that there are actual airline pilots in these forums, and those are the people my questions are directed toward. All I'm looking for is your $.02, and I'm not looking to spark any kind of debate. Please just state your ideas and agree to disagree; I'm trying to learn from everyone. I don't expect everyone to be answering every single question, so do me a favor and just let me know which one you're answering before you begin. I want to thank everyone for taking the time to read this and answer my questions. I really do appreciate it very much. This is my life, and a lot of effort, patience, and especially MONEY is at stake here.

Question 1: How important is a Bacchelors degree to the employers at the Airlines? Will my A.S. cut it?

Question 2: How does one build the minimum required flight times for the regional airlines if they get their ratings from a flight school and not a degree program? As I understand it, you have to be an instructor, you have to be rich, or you have to get lucky. Does it take considerably longer? I'm not much for starving and waiting around for a big break, so it's really important that I feel safe about my prospective career opportunities. That's why I'm seriously considering attending a university for aviation. I'd like to be the captain of a 777 en route to Heathrow from JFK by the time I'm 40. I already have something to fall back on, so I'm not really interested in getting my four year degree in anything that isn't going to further my career.

Question 3: I have applied and been accepted to both the University of North Dakota and Western Michigan University. I'd like to hear from graduates of both programs. Tell me what you liked, what you disliked, whether or not you feel the training helped your career, whether or not life in the area sucks, etc. Is it easy to get your career going once you graduate from these programs?

Question 4: This is directed towards those who are already flying big jets for major airlines. What does the timeline look like for a career as an international airline pilot? How do you advance? As I understand it, you start off in a regional airline as a first officer gaining experience in something like a CRJ-700, then you get promoted to captain. How long are you a first officer before you become a captain? How do you go from something like a CRJ-700 to a Boeing 747, and how long does it take? Are you locked into a certain aircraft/airline forever, or seemingly forever? What are the steps in between that I'm missing? Also, what's it like to be a first/second officer?

Question 5: Right now I'm making 40k. From what I've read on these forums, I will probably be making quite a bit less as a flight instructor or a FO in a regional airline. Is this correct? If so, when can I expect some return on my training investment assuming everything goes as planned?

Question 6: Is the 777 to Heathrow thing realistic? I've read a lot of scary posts here. Posts like this... http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/sh...ad.php?t=15705 I don't even know what to say to this kind of thing. It sounds like the opening monologue to a really depressing true story. No time for kids? No time for your wife? Can't afford a house? What? Well paid, happily married, know the names of your son's teachers, flying to Tokyo tomorrow airline pilots please step forward and refute these claims...

skyrice

Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not asking anyone to predict my future or talk about what's theoretically possible, but rather what happened to them and what they've experienced.

rickair7777

1. It is very difficult to get a major airline job without a BS degree in TODAY's environemnt. A number of folks did in the past, but that was in the past. Unless you have excellent family connections at a major airline, your odds are very low. The BS is often used as a screening criterie to thin the resume stack before they even look at flight qualifications. Also the BS allows you to more readily get a non-flying job if/when you have medical problems or get furloughed (odds are quite good that you will experience one of these). Contrary to what you said, you SHOULD get a 4 year degree in a non-aviation field (or aero-engineering).

I admit I do know one guy who got on at SWA with just an AS (also inside connections), so I'd say that an AS is better than no degree.

2. Right now people are getting hired at some regional airlines with just a few hundred hours, but this is not the historical norm. The vast majority of civilian pilots worked as flight instructors for 1000-3000 hours before getting an airline job. 1500-2000 is probably the historical average. There are a few other things a low-time pilot can do to build time: Traffic watch, pipeline patrol, skydive pilot, etc. These jobs are not always readily available although there is currently a shortage of low time pilots. I would at least earn the CFI rating...it gives you a lot of flexibility because you can almost always find work (or freelance). Also civilian pilots who do not hold a CFI are usually considered substandard. Your only remote shot at being a 777 CA by age 40 would be to complete your training, build enough time to get hired at a fast-upgrade regional, set your sights on Continental Airlines and get hired there within the next 5 years. You'd better get moving...

3. Not a graduate although UND has a decent repuation in the industry. Don't know anything about the other one.


4. You will have two COMPLETELY seperate airline careers...the first at a regional, and the second at a major. Be warned, major airline jobs are usually VERY competetive and many folks end up staying at a regional for life (even though they didn't want to). Keep in mind that you are not just competing with your fellow civilian pilots. Major airlines hire a lot of ex-military pilots, and these folks are often preferred over civilians.. They all have 4 year degress, often masters, and are proven performers...they are not "average joes".

Progression at both regionals and majors is based on seniority, so you start on the lowest paying (smallest) airplane as an FO and move up to bigger airplanes as people above you leave or retire (attrition). If your airline is growing, you could advance more quickly also. There is no set time frame for upgrade to CA, it depends on growth and attrition. You also need to have a certain number of flight hours, but you will usually have this long before your seniority allows upgrade.

Regional pilots usuall spend 2-4 years as an FO (8-12 worst case) before upgrading to CA. Once you get 1000 hours as a captain (PIC), you can apply to most major airlines, 2000 hours makes you reasonably competetive. It would take about 2 years as CA to get 1000 hours PIC at most regionals, although it could be 1-4 years depending on circumstances.

Major airline pilots start all over at the bottom of their seniority list (each airline has their own list and you cannot "transfer" between them with very few exceptions). A newly-hired major pilot will be paid less than he was as a regional CA and start over as FO on (usually) the smallest equipment the airline has. A major pilot would probably expect upgrade after 7-15 years as a major pilot, but this could vary widely from 2 years (continental) to Never (legacy US Airways). It all depends on the growth at your airline, and pilot demographics...if all the CA's are over age 55, you will upgrade soon as they retire. If all the captains are in their 40's, you're going to be waiting for a LONG time.

A variety of cargo companies fly older 747's, and you could probably go from CRJ CA to the 747 FO or SO. Unfortunately most of those cargo companies pay poorly, have hard lifestyles, and may have safety issues. Most RJ CA's would rather stay as RJ CA's rather than go fly a 747 under those conditions. In order to fly a 747 at a passenger airline, you will have to have many years of seniority. I'm guessing 15-20 years at that airline...and that's for FO, not CA.

You are not locked into an airplane forever, but it is hard to leave an airline because you lose all of your seniority. Most pilots only want to do this once, when they go from regional to major.


FO's and FO's can have a pretty good lifestyle, they just get paid less than a CA. A senior FO will get his choice of schedule, while a junior CA will be stuck with leftovers or reserve (on call). For this reason many FO's delay upgrade to preserve their QOL.

5. Due to the shortage, you could probably get 30K as a junior CFI, maybe more at some schools. Regional FO pay varies greatly between regionals...work rules make a huge difference. You will want to do a lot of research on work rules...simply comparing pay charts will NOT give you an accurate read on what you'll get paid. Regional FO's make $18-55K, regional CA's $45K-$120K. There amny variables including the airline, the equipment, and your time with the company (longevity).

6. I think CAL does go to LHR, but all jets are pretty much the same from inside the cockpit. The only good reason to fly a 777 would be pay and lifestyle...and you might have a better mix of both on a different airplane. An aviation career is a crapshoot...if you hit all the "gates" at the right time to avoid furlough and seniority stagnation you can have a pretty good life...or you can end up like the legacy US Airways pilots: 25 year FO's stapled to the bottom of another airlines seniority list in a merger. You just have make darn sure your crystal ball is accurate when you select an airline to work for. Basically, there are no guarantees but most pilots experience some good and some bad...I hope to have all the bad behind me in my later years.

The good news is that the seniority system gives you a LOT of lifestyle flexibility. If you chose to pursue the age 40 777 CA goal you will not see your wife and kids until age 45...actually not much after that because you'll be divorced. But you could settle for less pay and FO on smaller airplanes and have a lot of time off whenever you want it, or shoot for something in the middle.

skyrice

Thank you for your post Rick. It seems like the aviation industry is pretty tricky and that there's a lot of pitfalls. I've seen this first hand actually. My first instructor, my "mentor" really, had tried and failed to run his own flight school several times. He had at least 3 different businesses that I can remember. One day I came back to see how he was doing and the hangar had a new sign on it, and someone mentioned that he went to get certified as an EMT. Sad story.

Like I said, I'm not really interested in going to college for training that I'm not going to use. After what I've been reading though, it seems like the investment of tens of thousands of dollars at an aviation university might be a bad idea. I'm sure I would be able to succeed as a pilot, but the whole seniority thing is very worrying. I'm having exactly the same kind of upward mobility problems in my current "career" and I'm trying to get away from that very thing. I suppose it would be worth it though, to look down on a clear night and see the island of Manhattan in all of it's insignificance from 30,000 feet...

skyrice

I can't really see the economic advantage of training at a regular flight school instead of getting an aviation degree. It seems that the actual cost of flight training is the same, but you pay for tuition to the school on top of it. Both of these costs would be there whether you were getting an aviation degree or not, right? The only difference is that your BS is fortifying your flight training, which I couldn't see being a bad thing at all. I also don't think employers won't see me as well-rounded, considering my current career in computers and my AS in Math and Science. They also accepted all 62 of my credits from community college.

Total flight training costs at UND (without tuition): $54,007

This includes private, commercial, instrument, multi-engine, CFI, CFII, ATC simulation, altitude chamber lab, CRJ-200 FTD, and FAA written.

From the UND Brochure:

"UND Aerospace has pilot hiring programs with several regional airlines. These airlines have significantly reduced flight experience hiring requirements exclusively for UND graduates--an example of the confidence the industry has in our graduates."

Sounds good to me... Also, is it possible that the situation for pilots will be changing in the next several years? Air traffic is supposed to double within the next 20 years, meaning more opportunities for pilots?

Cubdriver

I really can't speak for the pilot career since I am a hobby flier, but I can vouch that getting a degree in something besides aviation is a good idea. In my case, I got an aerospace engineering degree and went to work for a major company, I think I was out of school maybe a week before I got some offers. I presently do airplane engineering and may one day try fulltime flying, but in the meantime enjoy flying for fun. Most pilots here will agree that getting a 4 year degree in something besides aviation is a good idea if not the best. Actually, there is a young fellow in my office that got his AE degree from Embry Riddle. As for the comparative costs of FBO flight training plus the cost of a 4 year non-aviation college degree, vs. an aviation degree that includes flight training, the latter will be slightly cheaper but you will not have a degree useful for anything but flying. If you were to get tired of that or lose your medical you will be in trouble.

Pilotpip

Skyrice, if you have the bug go for it.

In most cases a four year degree won't be a limiting factor to getting hired at a regional however it will be at a major. In some cases it's a requirement for the position. If you want to get in, and get a number to start moving up you may want to consider an online degree from a reputable university. I've had a ton of time in the last four days sitting here on this board killing time. I'd imagine it would be possible to work on that degree while sitting in the hotel room. It's too cold in MKE to go out anyway

There are a number of things you can do to build time however because of insurance requirements there aren't many things you can do outside of flight instructing. Finding an instructing job isn't hard these days and if you're willing to work it's more than possible to log 100 hours a month and move on fairly quickly.

As far as pay, it's anybody's guess. It's really all about when you get in. Right now, upgrades are happening because there is a ton of movement. This can change in a heartbeat. In the last few months junior captain has gone from about 5 years to one year. Timing is everything. If you're sitting in the FO seat at my airline, you might get back to your current income level at year three. If upgrades keep going the way they are going, you're doing better in two years. If you've been smart with your money and live within your means I'd imagine that you'd be looking at about 3 years before you're back to your quality of life in today's airline environment.

The 777 to Heathrow is more than possible. Continentinental has been putting new hires into widebodies. I think Delta has too. Go to a regional with a fast upgrade, make friends, get some PIC and have your resume walked in. You never know.

Last but not least, I don't think pilots as a whole are more disgruntled than any other profession. One of the things that makes it so bad is the intamacy (for lack of a better word) of the job. You're sitting in the front with a contemporary for a number of days in a row with a bulletproof door between the two of you and the outside world. You're spending hours of time at a relatively low workload looking for crap to talk about. Guess what? People complain about their jobs. When you're junior I can see how it's tough to have a family life. However as a senior lineholder with some flexibility in schedule I could argue that it's easier than having a 9 to 5 because most in the corporate world spend much more time working and commuting than they do at home. With days off during the week it would be easier to get involved with your kids' school and extracurricular stuff like sports, get the things done around the house that need to be done during the week and enjoy the time off with them.

rickair7777

For $54K you should be able get an MEI and a LOT of multi-engine time.

I would expect to pay $35K for all ratings through MEI, including about 20 hours ME time (and I live in SOCAL $$$). You could get it cheaper in middle America.

The Air Force will give any civilian pilot a free ride in one of their altitude chambers.

You don't need a CRJ FTD, especially if they charge you thousands of dollars for it.

You can take the FAA writtens on your own.

For $54K I'd expect academic tuition too. If you have cash to burn, go for it.

But if you're planning on taking out a loan, be warned that regional FO pay will not cover that large of a loan. Even $30K would be a lot.

This should be a real attention getter: The lending agencies usually do NOT approve flight training loans based on your income potential as a pilot after training...it's like approving a Mcdonalds crew member for a loan to buy a new, high-performance Mercedes. Financially it does not make sense. The lenders invariably base your loan approval on your (or your parent's) CURRENT income, conveniently ignoring the fact that you will be quiting that job to train and work at a regional.

I know too many folks who are slaves to their student loan, and with 15-20 year loans there is no end in sight. Unless you get hired by UPS, SWA, or FDX you will not be paying that loan off early.

skyrice

What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I checked the prices with my FBO and it's around $33,000 for everything up to CFII. I'm trying to determine whether or not the additional cost and *potential* to be a better candidate for an airline job are justified. I could always just stay on full time with my computer job, pay out of pocket for flight training for several years, instruct for several more years... get a lucky break at a regional airline... etc. I would be so far behind everyone else in the profession though at that point. I'd be like 30 years old, just starting as an FO at a regional. Sure I might not have loans to pay, but I don't have a B.S. either, and by that time in my life I might be making double what I make now with my career in computers. How could I justify going back to 30K a year, especially considering the fact that I'll probably have a kid by then...

skyrice

There's something seriously wrong with an industry if the cost of properly educating yourself to do the job isn't justified by the pay. That's absurd. This might seem silly, but my cousin's ex-girlfriend's father was apparently a pilot who was making around $250,000 a year. I also read an article in Forbes that placed the international airline pilot as one of the most prestigious and well-paid jobs in the country. So what everyone here is saying, basically, is that this is true IF you manage to land that kind of a job, and that EVERYONE is jocking for it, and that anything less isn't even really worth it?