Slice

www.prairieairservice.com, great training at half the ATP price. They can at least answer your training questions. The regs changed a little since I got my IFR but I did do a little single engine time building in conjunction with my IFR training. It's good to get out there on your own a little and explore.

Lbell911

ATP Requires you to have 25hrs PIC Cross Country prior to enrolling in their career program.

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airli...equisites.html

Now the other 25hrs PIC can be built after your ME pvt, while you are flying "under the hood", in actual VFR Conditions.......This will knock out two birds with one stone....so to speak, you are logging simulated instrument time, plus flying cross crounty pic.....the catch is you can't log pic if the conditions are ACTUAL IFR........you can log that as actual IFR time (towards your IFR Rating), but not as PIC since you don't have that rating yet!

Hope this helps....and good luck!

the King

[quote=Lbell911;192603]the catch is you can't log pic if the conditions are ACTUAL IFR........you can log that as actual IFR time (towards your IFR Rating), but not as PIC since you don't have that rating yet!quote]

Looking for opinions. That doesn't fit with my interpretation of the regs. Anyone with more insight?

emsgoof

The instrument training is for a rating. This is how I've figured that you can only log PIC during your instrument training if you're in VMC.

aerospacepilot

Engineer Pilot,
Aerospacepilot was in a very similar position not that long ago. I had the exact questions you had. Let me share my experience.

I got my privaten license at 58 hours. I had 6 hours of PIC XC (solo cross countries) and 5 hours of hood time. I would guess you have similar times (the XC and instrument). The next step should definately be to get your instrument rating. To get your instrument rating, you need:

• 50 hours of PIC XC
• 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument
• Atleast 15 hours needs to be instruction from a CFII
• Atleast 3 hours in preparation for the checkride
• One cross country flight of 250+NM distance flying IFR, with a different instrument approach at a minimum of 3 airports.

The biggest hurdles are the 50 hours of PIC XC and 40 hours of hood time. My instructor told me to get 35 hours of PIC XC, then call him up to start training. So I started doing some PIC XC flying. This is the best and most fun flying to do. Take a friend or two, takeoff, and fly somewhere at least 50nm. Land, have lunch, walk around the town, go sightseeing, etc... You are from SoCal right? Fly out to San Diego, Palm Springs, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, etc... Fly places you have never been before. Book the plane for several hours (or all day) and have some fun.

So here is what I gather from my experience. Get out and fly PIC XC until you have about 30 hours of it. If you have a friend who holds atleast a private pilot license, try to get at least 5 hours of hood time. The more the marrier. Your instrument rating will take around 35 hours of dual given. Almost all of that time should be under the hood. Approximately 20 of it can/should be PIC XC. Make sure you let your instructor know you still need x amount of PIC XC and x amount of hood time. Fly about 3 times a week and it should take about 2 months.


If you go this route, you will end up with your instrument rating at about 120 hours. If I have not said it already, you should do it in a single engine!! The instrument rating is a tough rating to get. I am getting a degree in Aerospace Engineering, and I know that you are an engineer, so you are obviously smart and a good learner. Still, I do not recommend doing it in a multi. Learning to fly a multi engine airplane is tough for a 60 hour pilot. I do not recommend getting your multi with anything less than 120 hours and an IFR rating. Add in all the instrument flying while in a multi, and it is not the best environment conducive to learning or training.

Here is the best path if you want to be a professional pilot:
-Get your private license (60 hours TT)
-Do PIC XC flying for about 25 hours (85 hours TT)
-Get your instrument rating for about 35 hours (120 TT)
-Build 100 hours of flying time OF YOUR CHOICE to get your commercial (220TT)
-Get your commercial multi engine and commercial single engine (250TT)

The 100 hours of free time is up to you. One idea is to buy 100 hours of shared block multi time for about $9,000. You can spend 50 hours flying and 50 hours as safety pilot to get your 100 multi for about the same price of 100 hours of single engine. The catch is some airlines do not count the safety pilot time for their 100 multi requirements.

Personally, I am going to do a bunch of fun flying. If you read the FAR's for a commercial license, you notice that it says "250 hours of flight time as a pilot." Only 100 hours has to be in powered aircraft, and only 50 hours has to be in airplanes!! I am going to get my commercial glider license. I am going to get my tailwheel endorsement. I may go out and learn to fly sea planes. I am going to enjoy that 100 hours. It is free time. And it is only going to cost me a few thousand dollars to have all this fun! If you think about it, you need that 250 hours anyway. You can either pay for a C-172 and fly around the same area you always do, or you can use your license to learn (your PPL) and go out and become a true aviator. It will never be cheaper to get a tailwheel, a seaplane rating, a glider license, etc...

I hope this helps. Do some fun PIC XC flying. Then go get your instrument in a single engine. Then use that 100 hours before your commercial to have fun. If you wish to do it in a 172, that is fine. In a multi, that is fine. In a seaplane, even better. It is up to you. But I am going to have fun and learn a lot.
The decision is up to you.

Slice

Side note: I'm not sure many airlines will count glider time towards their mins. So, while it may work for the FAA, it may not for the job hunt(similar to what helo guys sometimes have to deal with). Something to consider.

aerospacepilot

Quote:

Originally Posted by JETCAREERS

I just kinda wish people would stop trying to become "professional pilots" so fast and try to become aviators first!

This is my favorite quote. I wish people would stop trying to become "professional pilots" so fast and try to become AVIATORS first! I want to become an AVIATOR first! You have 100 hours of free time. It is yours to do whatever you want with it. If a signle engine Cessna costs $80 an hour, but you can get a tailwheel endorsement for $110 an hour dual (takes ten hours), then it only costs $300 to get a tailwheel endorsement. Why would you pass that up?? Some people say "You will never fly a tailwheel at an airline." Sure. But let me tell you about the tailwheel instructor. He teaches you to land with your feet on the floor (no rudder). Have you ever landed in a crosswind with no rudder?? NO! What are you going to do if your rudder fails? (US Air 427, United 525, etc...) Are you as an AVIATOR capable of that?

Same argument goes for gliders. Some people say "You will never fly a glider at an airline." Sure, but let me tell you about what I learned while flying gliders. My second flight in a glider I found a wasp nest in the cabin air intake. I had about 1 hour pilot time at the time. It was a good EXPERIENCE. I learned that pre-flight is important. That memory will stick with me for the rest of my life. I will forever take the pre-flight seriously, thanks to that EXPERIENCE. After about 5 hours of flying a glider, my instructor covered up the airspeed. I was able to land no problem. I just used my groundspeed and the wind sock as a reference for my speed. It was a great EXPERIENCE. The first time my airplane instructor covered my airspeed indicator, he complimented me on the nice approach I flew. He said in 5,000 hours of teaching, he had never seen a new pilot fly that steady of an approach without airspeed. I told him about my glider EXPERIENCE.

He gave me a similar compliment the first time he cut the engine on me turning downwind to base at 85kts. I was level at 85kts, about to reduce power and descend when he pulled the engine. I immediately pitched up and made a steep 135 degree turn, then pegged the airpseed at 65kts and headed straight for the runway. We caught a small updraft on the way to the runway when I slowed, pitched up, and observed the VSI show a 0fpm descent for a few seconds. Then when the runway was made, full left rudder, right aileron, and then landed. He purpously pulled it at the toughest part of the traffic pattern, then complimented me on the slip. I told him there is no going around in a glider, so you have to get it right the first time. I guess that came from my EXPERIENCE. If my engine ever goes out (Air Transat 236, Pinnacle 3701, etc...), I will have that EXPERIENCE under my belt. Perhaps if the guys from Pinnacle became AVIATORS (and did not go to the professional pilot factory called Gulfstream), the outcome may have been different.



So why are some 600 hour pilots better than some 1,200 hour pilots. The answer is EXPERIENCE. Experience is not just total time. It is all the events that occured in an aircraft that led them to where they are now. Give me a 1,200 hour VFR Cessna 152 pilot or a 600 hour IFR pilot with a tail wheel and glider license, who flew out of a busy towered airport in tight airspace and challenging weather, and I would almost guarentee the 600 hour pilot is better. Even though he has less total time, he has more EXPERIENCE. He is more of an AVIATOR.

Now that I made that comment, I think you are going to try and argue you should get a private multi at 60 hours. That is fine. I do not recommend it because you are a fairly inexperienced pilot at that time and it can be tough. But it is certainly doable. My recommendation to do it in a single engine is from a cost perspective. Multi engine time is more than twice as expensive than single engine!

Some people argue that you should do your private license out of a slow untowered airport. Personally, I think everyone should learn in a busy towered airport. That is just my opinion. Everyone's has a different opinion. My opinion is you should get your IFR before you multi. But to each his own. I posted my opinion, and Engineer Pilot can make the decision.

Slice, you have military background, correct? The military used to train their pilot applicants in a T-37 (twin engine jet). Then, for some reason, they decided to pay thousands of dollars to send the pilots to get their private pilots license in a Cessna 152 or 172. After that, they get in a single engine T-6, then transition to a twin engine jet (T-38). Why did they make this change? Your guess is as good as mine, but I think it speaks volumes that there is something to be learned by sticking a student pilot into a single engine 172 and send them around the patch before sticking them into a jet.

If you have any teaching experience, you know that you just cannot throw everything to a student at once if you want them to absorb it. That is why you take the radios for the first few lessons, then slowly work them into the routine. Same thing with learning to fly for airlines. Teach them to fly (private), then teach them instruments (IFR), then teach them to fly multi engine (multi rating). It would be nice if we could just stick someone in the left seat of a jet and say learn. But that is not reality. If the military cannot make it work, then why can a civilian FBO do it any better.

That is my advice. I say learn to fly IFR, then get your multi engine rating, then put them together. And become the best AVIATOR you can. You can certainly do your IFR in a multi, but I just don't recommend it from both a teaching standpoint and a cost standpoint.

The decision is up to Engineer Pilot.
I just kinda wish people would stop trying to become "professional pilots" so fast and try to become aviators first!

Slice

The T-6 was a cost issue and had nothing to do with the average student's ability to fly ME aircraft and the military made it work for almost 50 years (1959-present, believe it is still being flown at Sheppard AFB). The PPL requirement before UPT was to see if guys had the aptitude for flying before they got to UPT (again to save $)and is no different than getting your SE in the civilian world and then adding on the ME rating, which is exactly what was happening when you showed up and started flying the Tweet. If you get your ME PPL after your SE PPL you immediately begin accruing ME PIC which is what it's all about when trying to get a job. You end up with around 40 hours ME (MEL and IFR) 30+ being PIC. You can also do your CFII in a multi and it is similar to the Comm ME, so you can combine a lot of the training which actually saves you money over stopping and starting again.

Engineer Pilot

Thanks for the advice everyone. For now I am going to stay where I am and build my solo PIC X-country time so I can begin on my SE instrument rating. However, I did give Prairie Air Service a good thought to begin on my Private Multi. Multi time will come later for me with experience, ratings, and networking.